Wow, I love Lions and Tigers, they are SO cute! 
 
jess 
www.privacy.de.tc

I actually have a Wolf hybrid and am familiar with Wolf behavior. Wolves will most certainly back down from a fight, and they don't 'attack each other' in determining pack rank. They do have a sequence of behaviors they go through but no real damage generally happens to either animal. Wolves in general are not aggressive except when backed into a corner or on the hunt for food. 
 
Now with regard to the Mountain Lion, considering they way 300 to 400 lbs and a large wolf tops at 150 to 175, on a one to one it is a no brainer who would win, the cat because the wolf is going to be someplace else. 
 
The representation of a Wolf as some sort of canid monomaniac is a disservice to all dog owners, not just Wolves and hybrids. 
 
Get a clue people. 

I think you missed the point...

Mountain lions (or as I like to call them: Catamounts) are also incredibly stealthy - pouncing from above using perches in trees or on rock faces. The wolf might not even really know what hit it. Also, that guy above is ridiculous - if he thinks he's getting real biology here then he is totally out of his mind...

This is as real as it gets syanco

It's so real I think I'm going to go get myself checked for tick bites...thats how out in the wild i feel after reading these supremely well-crafted articles.

in a video, its very clear and obvious that wolf has no match against the cougar...end

You obviously didn't study at all and went off what you assumed.The wolf is not some vicious beast that will attack and eat anything.Wolves will typically avoid a potential prey item which does not conform to what they experienced during their lives. Generally, the greater the discrepancy to what wolves are previously accustomed to, the greater their resistance to exploring it. This is only increased should the new prey act bold, assertive, and fearless, as a mountain lion would.Also the wolf does not go for the throat most of the time, and if it does it doesn't hang on.It mostly goes for the haunches, causing massive bleeding and hopefully slightly crippled the animal.Also, the wolf can go up to 5 mph faster than the cougar, giving it an edge.And the cougar isn't one of the most powerful predators on earth.Cougars can be almost as large as jaguars, but are less muscled and powerful.Plus both of them are ambush predators, the only difference being the wolf chases down the prey while the cougar goes for a quick jump on top of the animal, both of which are about the same odds of catching the prey, for different reasons.Also the wolf is only slightly smaller than the cougar, but still holds a fair advantage.Both of them have a good chance of winning.My thoughts are that everyone assumes the bigger animal would win, which isn't always the case.

Listen dumb ass size does why do you think in boxing ,kickboxing and almost all fighting sports they have weight division`s.

Size matters you retard!

Are we having fun yet?

haven't you herd that "its not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"? first off theres no way of telling who would win because alot of factors have to be weighed out. like weither one ambushed the other, what was the altitute, who attacked who first. you cant just say of the mountian lion would win cuz u dont kno for sure. the bobcat would most likely attack the wolf cuz of prey. and the wolf would attack the wolf mainly because its being provoked and is fighting for its life. that being said the wolf would have more fight because its fighting for its life. and the mountian lion is fighting to eat. size plays a factor yes but its mainly about who wants it more.

yes the wolf would not win but its ancestor will the old wolves were a big a a bear so i want the OLD WOLF BACK SO PWN i love wolves

The cougar has the weight advantage, can use its arms better to swipe and can pounce almost 20 feet through the air. Wolves are pack animals and one would not do good on its own. An exceptionally large alpha male wolf could only win if it rushes in and gets a fatal bite on the cougars neck, watch the video as an example.

a cougar is just too much for a wolf

Cougars are cool. But I like bobcats.

animals are animals..it doesn't matter if they are strong..weak or small..they have feelings like us!! we should not try to fight them..fighting is one of the reason why it doesn't have any peace on this planet...so i hope we will be friendly to animals!! im just concerned to them..don't be mad at me!! im not sayin anything about your personality or your self!! ^^

Cougar would win end of story

did u all miss this!, wolves have one of the most powerful bites on earth it can destroy a car with its powerful jaws, so imagine a car dors width as the cougars neck 1,2,3 crunch! cougar dead END OF STORY....

Cougar: stronger, heavier, fiercer, better armed, faster and more agile.

u frekin fuck wit the gray wolf has more jaw power than any cougar and are smaller ther4 there are smarter and faster

Mountain lions are solitary hunters, and they exist without a social structure. Wolves, however, are almost always found in a group, or a pack. So, I'd have to say that, on average, the wolf would probably win. Four or five Gray wolves could easily rip a mountain lion apart. Wolves are also quite intelligent as well and they're pretty good with strategy. I mean they have to be in order to communicate with other members of the pack. Wolves rely on non-verbal communication when they hunt, which also makes them really skilled tacticians.

Lol..That's what I was just about to say! you beat me to it hen.

well i have a wolf almanac at my house and it said that there was once 7 wolves in pack who killed 3 male full grown grizzley bears.thats kinda cool to me.but i say they both have a 50 50 chance.

cougars not win everytime. there is not another video? WHO wins?wolves are great animals. 
 

I can't believe some of the posts that I'm reading. I don't know if I should laugh or cry. The Cougar wins this fight, period. It's not about a cougar vs. a pack of wolves, it's not about the fantasy of a wolf biting a car in half,(man I'm still laughing at that one), it's about the fighting abilities of the two animals. An alpha wolf is big and strong, but a full-grown adult cougar is bigger and stronger. And quicker. And five of his six points are weopons; i.e., claws or jaws.  
 
The facts don't lie. Don't mess with the Puma!

Any member of the cat family,pound for pound cannot be beat. Once watched a local tomcat maul a pitbull when the pit had it cornered and the pit weighed 10 times as much. Just because a cat will sometimes save energy and avoid a fight now and again..let him get hungry or cornered and watch what happens. I love all animals but cats are the most amazing,athletic,graceful and deadly of all.

Size doesn't matter, it is how equipped you are to the fight at hand. In certain cases, this may be size, but in others not. I believe that the mountain lion would win because it is more agile and can move the wolf with its powerful paws, unlike the wolf who has no real control. An additional 20 pounds or 5 mph does not give a real advantage unless everyone is fighting with the same weapons.

Actually, 20 lbs can make a big difference, moreso if it's 20 lbs of muscle. 
 
Wolves almost always run thier prey down, attacking from the rear. 
 
Cougars always go for the throat, and they have to be strong enough to hold thier prey down until death occurs. I pointed out that cats use all for legs and it's jaws, to subdue prey and fight enemies. Most big cats are solitary hunters, and so they usually try to avoid confrontations because of the risk of injury. If they're injured, they can't hunt. If the threat comes from a single source and smaller, the cougar may not back down, especially if food or cubs are involved. 
 
In any event, the cougar is much stronger than a wolf. 
 
It is no contest.

Jcol has a point, the cougar would in fact kill a lone wolf, because he is superior in strength and agility, I doubt that a lone wolf would even want to mess around with a cougar. The Largest Cougar weighed probably 260 lbs, the largest wolf weighed only 175 lbs, The cat would own the dog this time!!

The cougar wouldnt win everytime.and i video will not prove that.the cougar is more flexible because it can climb.if the wolf could climb it would flexible too .but since the wolf lives in packs it does not need to climb because it uses speed when it attcks prey from the rear or neck.u cant just say the cougar will win everytime.because they both r strong,fast,smart predators.

I agree with J. Choate it's just not a fair fight, basically you have a wild very heavy muscular cat vs a simple dog. in boxing this is like a paper weight going against super heavy weight.. it's total bull! get into the right weight classes people!

Cougars would rip the wolf's fucking face off, you jackasses.

ahhh my fav one yet closest in wieght. the cougar is my fav animal. but i say it wins not cause of this. more weapons stronger, faster, more agile and the ability to grab with its front legs and bite and kick away with its back legs and claws lol try roughing up a house cat and watch this in action. imagine a 200 lbs cat doing that with much larger claws.... the wolf is an amazing and beautyfull animal but it hasnt a chance realy ... mayb the wolf an cougar should team up an kick that grizlys arse.. bear seems to b the most dangerus land animal on this site mayb if the web dude puts up inland tiapan vs grizzly bear my money is on the snake a drop of venom can kill 2 full grown bull elephants

Is this question a joke? A wolf would be totally annihilated by a mountain lion. Not even a close fight. And in response to the first post, a wolf most certainly will back down. They are more pack fighters, and alone they will run off if need be. This would more than likely be a 10 second, or less, fight.

The mountain lion is stronger and more agile. Plus, unlike the wolf it has more weapons. It's paws and hind legs are more dangerous than its bite. 
 
Mountain lion wins this one.

lone wolves r most of the time omegas..(weakest in pack) 
 
omega wolves we be kicked out of a pack sometimes.when this occurs it is now on its own.. 
 
so a lone wolf(omega) vs cougar wont be a fair fight due to the weakness of the wolf.alpha male wolf vs male cougar could come either way. 
 
u cant just predict what will happen Jcol...

Once again leah, the premise was not, "biggest, strongest Cougar, vs 
 
weakest wolf they could find.", It was "Grey Wolf vs. Cougar". 
 
You're looking for excuses. 
 
Cougar wins.

im saying if a wolf and a cougar really met in the wild then it would most likely be an omega wolf. 
 
this was a set up. 
 
i dont even know hold old this video is.... 
 
one video cant prove anything. 
 
anything can happen in the wild. 
 

Haha-someone posted on here that the cougar weighs 400 lbs-thats the weight of a male african lion!! Cougars are 180-220 lbs! I think whoever gets the first big bite would win-probably the cougar, but nature's funny sometimes- a warthog has killed an african lion before and a zebra bit a lion on the throat in a river standing over the lion almost drowning it, so who can say?

a Mt. lion could probuly take the wolf down unless the wolf was a male. 
it would be sort of close though. But id have to go for the Mountain lion.

who ever said a cougar is only 5mph faster isnt correct there the cougar is the second fastest cat and the fastest with retrable claws its alot more quicker then the wolf. only advantage the wolf has is its incredible stanima but the cougar can also jump 35ft and is insainly agile for an animal its size its going to have the wolf easy be it alfo or omega it dosent matter any cougar exept for cubs,injured or almost starved to death will maul a single wolf any day of the week unless it gets a lucky bite or slips over and breaks it own neck.seriously the wolf could dry growling and snarling at the cougar and try and intimedate it but these are ment to b fights to the death or at least thats what i understand from this site. the cougar would snarl right back at it and them buggers sound demonic

its a one on one fight ppl not wolves vs not super white fang vs.its wolf vs cougar the cougar is far more stronger, faster, and agile plus it kills its own prey by itself this isnt really a match its a white wash

now listen up a couger 94.7% of the time it goes for where the neck and back meat. 5% of the time it atacks from behind anf tackles digging its claws in to its victoms side. and 0.3%of the time it goes for the throte. 
 
 
 
the couager is faster and weighs more but the wolf is longer, smarter, better senses, and stronger, and 99% of the time atacks the throat. 1% the the upper neck. the couger's bute has the strangth to crush a bike. and the wolf's is enough to crush a ford f350. although the couger may be stelthyer the wolf would seance it comeing and be ready..................clearly giveing the wolf the winning advantige

ignore that pretender billybobjo lol what a fool cougars win.dont b jealous cause my name is uber cool and ur name is lame like kenny or some shit

also cats go for the neck, wolfs attack by attacking the legs or tails and hold it wile the other pack members get there and help hold it down..they dont even nessersarly kill it some times they just start eating wile the animal is still alive ive seen african hunting dogs do this on a doco least the cougar is humane with his prey lol.. u showed ur brain skills and copying me was just childish

a lone wolf will attack the babies 
 
and a pack will attack the sick or wounded. 
 
cougars attack anything or they would scavenge(same with wolves) 
 
but argueing over this is a waist of time because anything can happen in the wild.get a life people!

Motherfucker! I wouldn't want to be named "billy bob joe", I like my name, my mother gave it to me! 
 
 
 
And Billy Bob Joe, I'll kill you! I'm not scared of nobody, be sure to tell Frankie that too! I could kill your gay ass 6ft6 brother as well, he must've been somebody's bitch in jail huh? 
 
 
 
If you're gonna try to lie to me over the internet about how "badass" you are, you don't have a life, it's not worth arguing with you, and you referring to me as a "kid going through hormonal changes" made me laugh, because that is something a "kid going through hormonal changes" would say! lol. 
 
 
 
You're really a 12 year old illiterate kid lying his ass off on the damn computer, you worthless little punk, get off and go play with your friends! 
 
 
 
I know i'm talking shit, but so are you! We're about even on the talking shit.

wolf should win.According to animal face off the wolf was eating.I say if the wolf will eat 
 
it will pay no attention towards the cougar untill it starts running.But the intelligent wolf will wait untill the cougar comes quite close and the wolf will roll towards cougar's legs and the cougar will fall.As the wolf will do it by it's will it will get up in no time and the cougar falling accidently wold take a bit more time but the wolf in a swift,powerful and fast bite of 1000lbs of force in the windpipe would tear it.And the cougar would die as wolf gaining victory.

Some of the facts provided are wrong. Gray wolves the largest of the wolves weights differ greatly depending on geographic location. The heaviest Gray wolf ever documented weighed 175lbs in Alaska. In N.America they typically average 90-100lbs, which is the same as a large dog. Cougars as you get closer to the poles get larger. In N.America especially in Canada they weigh on average of 160-200lbs. In rare cases exceeding 250lbs, which has occurred more then the one Gray wolf that weighed 175lbs.  
 
Of coarse it isn't always about weight. A pack of Wolves could easily scare off a Cougar. This fight however is probably based on one on one. Cougars are immensely powerful and can take down prey 7 times there own weight meaning they can quite easily take down a average 700lb Elk, and even 800lb female Moose and average 1200-1400 lb male Moose. A single Wolf could never do this and relays on a pack and stamina to do this. The Cougar relays on stealth, and power, and can pull a Large Elk or even Moose to the ground with the initial pounce and attack on the prey, by jumping on it's back and pulling it to the ground by biting the neck and putting it's body weight on the neck pulling the animal to the ground.  
So the Cougar clearly has the upper hand in stealth, agility, and strength, along with sharper longer claws, as well as longer teeth.  
It seems the only advantages the Gray wolf has if it is a one on one fight is brains, and stamina.  
 
I left weight out of it because weight doesn't always determine the victor unless of coarse one is massively heavier then the other. These two are only separated by 60-100lbs on average.  
i give the win to the Cougar.

I think that weight doesn't matter either. Smaller and lighter things can have the advantage over bigger things. Now speed: Okay the cougar is faster and more agile, but that doesn't always mean it wins. Yes, it has more dangerous weapons on its side, but wolves are dangerous too. We aren't talking about little Yorkies here. Wolves are very intelligent creatures and can learn fast. I doubt that a lone wolf would even challenge a cougar in the first place, and if it was challeged it would probably back down. Animals know when they can't win. They both could possibly just ignore each other completely. Animals don't just attack because they see another animal. If they fought, I'd give the win to the cougar but you never know. (P.S. Wolves don't try to attack and kill anything they can! >:[)

a wolf will too back down from a fight. and size does NOT matter at all. thats how wolves kill moose. a wolf would easily take down a cougar one on one. big male wolves can weigh over 200 pounds. cougars are the ones that back down. the wolf is stronger, faster, and a more skilled hunter and fighter. more cougars have been killed by wolves than wolves by cougars one on one. wolves have one of the most powerful bite forces in the animal kingdom. wolves pone.

Look, Bob....a full-grown Cougar is larger, stronger and quicker than a full-grown Wolf. The Cougar is a more skilled hunter because it is a lone hunter. It hunts by stealth. The wolf basically runs it's prey to ground with the help of the wolf-pack, it can also hunt solo, but will rarely tackle anything big by itself. Cougars are fierce fighting machines. They are designed for fighting. Because they are lone hunters, they have to have great strength to catch and hold prey while they go for the killing bite at the throat. Any Wolf that takes on a cougar is in for a very bad day. Exactly where did you get your facts about wolves killing Cougars, one on one?

lol kenny u get retarded as the seconds go by obviously u never been to jail it isnt like that sorry to spoil ur gay love fantisys and as far as u beating me in a fight that is insainly laughable u stupid lil anal licker u wanna fight me get off the nett and come to my house u stupid cowardly cunt 
 

and ur the one who talks shit i have grading certificates to prove my training u stupid shit. i have proof that id wipe the floor with u. and as far as making acusations that im a 12 y o kid well then ur obviously running out of material that could b deemed offencive, go take a nap u need it 
 

At first some comparison.Cougars are 
 
stronger ,faster and larger + it has powerful scratch.Wolf has more stamina, inteligence, and powerful bites + it is an experienced fighter.As I know wolf will not attack directly. It will tire the cougar and ingure badly .Then the foolish cougar will die by wolf's bite.

A grey wolf will tear a couger into bits and pieces

A grey wolf will tear a cougar into bits and pieces

It all depends on the circumstances cougars are agile and have sharp claws and are slightly on average heavier then Timber Woves. Now Timber Wolves have incredible biting force around 1000lbs per sq inch, people think Cougars have more speed they are wrong, Timbers can run at a speed of 45 mph and keep that speed locked on for literaly hours, now thats great stamina. Cougars are stealthy ambush predators, they wont even try to attack a Wolf head on unless its cornered. Somebody mentioned that Lone wolfs are almost always omega wolfs which makes them the weakest wolf in the pack is absolutly correct. So if a cougar fights one on one with a lone wolf it will tear it apart assuming the lone wolf even trys to fight it. Now the Alpha male wolf would give the Cougar a great match but it could go either way. Remember that the Wolfs thick fur and hide would not cause as much damage to a wolf as most people think. But the cougar is a vicious beast when its cornered, to me its a draw. Now a Grizly bear would whoop both of them apart! I bet you guys didnt know that bears are closely related to canines, they both come from the evolutionary tree. The better match would be Grizly versus Tiger or Lion, they both can fight with their claws. I Think grizzly wins, just like the timber wolf the grizly has very thick fur and hide even thicker then the wolfs. Who would win? Anybody?

I'll try this one more time; 
 
Cougars are STRONGER, and QUICKER than any Wolf, Timber, Gray or even Big, Bad. (that's a joke...) 
 
A cougar can and will attack prey that a lone wolf would never even think about attacking, unless it was desperate. And let's put something else to rest too, and that's the notion that there's a lot of fighting in wolf packs to determine the alpha-male. This is FALSE. The fact is, there is very little actual fighting within a pack. There IS a lot of signals, and postering, all of which is designed to AVOID fighting. Fighting will sometimes occur during mating season, or when territories are invaded, sometimes when it's meal-time, but there's hardly ever any real deadly fighting done within the pack. 
 
Cougars, as lone hunters, will try to avoid a confrontation if it can. Any injury can be a serious injury, it has no "pack" to depend on. But Cougars are aggresive when it comes to protecting cubs, a kill or territory. A big male cougar will almost always defeat and/or kill a big male wolf.

Here's my input I work on a National Preserved Forest in Alaska, On a routine observation run, I came upon a dead cougar that had been dead approximately 3 days, I then took it back to one of the observatories and called a wildlife biologist friend of mine to examine the specimen, needless to say the cause of death according to the bite mark on the upper neck was conclusively caused by a wolf. Now I was not present during this cougar/wolf confrontation so I don't know whether or not the wolf was alone or accompanied by a pack but there was only one bite that caused its demise thats all it took, so in my expert opinion I know the wolf is quite capable of killing such a ferocius beast. Now on the flipside I also have found dead wolves at the paws of grizzly and cougars. In the wild anything is possible, like ARR said it depends on the circumstances. I have know preference of beast whatsoever I love all animals equally, so I can come from an unbiased point of view unlike some of the people on this forum.

at first some comparison. 
 
cougars:stronger,faster,larger and dangerous scratches. 
 
wolf:more stamina,more intelligent, 
 
more powerful bites and has fighting experience. 
 
as all know injured animals cannot hunt, so cougar will be afraid at first as wolves chase them.according to these theories,wolf biting cougar will make it injured and if puma cannot hunt, it has no chance of bringing down an alpha male.

arpan, this is really not a difficult concept. It's about a straight-up, one-on-one fight between a cougar and a wolf. Lock the two of them in a room or a cage, and let them have at it. 
 
Break it down; 
 
Agility: Cougar 
 
Quickness: Cougar 
 
Strength,power: Cougar 
 
Weopens: Cougar 
 
Stamina: Wolf 
 
Intelligence: If, as some say, the Wolf is more intelligent, and I have my doubts about that, but if the Wolf is indeed more intelligent, then it should be able to figure out that it should get the hell outa dodge, and NOT mess with a big, angry cat. 
 

ok this is all jacked up. Most cougars weigh between 130 and 200 with a really big one at 220. Wolves are so rarely hunted that the records are bull. by this I mean if I found as new species and shot 3, what are the chances that the biggest one is the world record wolf? There are two "subspecies" of gray wolf. One is the pack type wolf weighing between 120 and 180 pounds. Then there are the alaskan and canadian wolves weighing between 150 and 225+ pounds guess why the smaler ones are in packs? because they are smaller! Teddy Rossevelt even knew about pack and single wolves because he hunted them and had great respect for them. A wolf(the big type) can break a deer(or cougars) back bone with it muscular arms. its bite force is double that of the cougar and the run the same speed. If a wolf can kill a wolverine, then it can surely defend itself against a cougar.

Man, this just keeps getting better and better. Now we have two "types" of Gray Wolf, the smaller "pack" wolf and the larger Alaskan and/or Canadian Wolf. (I guess they don't need no stinkin' packs because they're larger, right?) 
 
 
 
Apparently, these larger Wolves have something the smaller pack wolf doesn't have; powerfull, MUSCULAR" arms!!! 
 
 
 
Arms? Yes, that's right, ARMS! Big, powerfull arms that can break the back of a deer OR a Cougar. 
 
It's a fighting technique rarely used in the Animal kingdom, I believe it's called the "HULK SMASH" manuever, so named after the Incredible Hulk. 
 
 
 
You people are cracking me up. Look, why not just accept reality; 
 
A big male Cougar, on average bigger, stronger, quicker and just down-right meaner, than a big male gray wolf, will beat and more than likely kill, the Wolf, in a one-on-one, straight-up fight. 
 
Even if the Wolf has big muscular arms.

Yes. Wolves are in fact much more intelligent than cougars. Wolves have to be intelligent in order to survive within the pack. In other words, canines are well aware of the dynamics that exist within the pack structure. They also utilize these dynamics while they're hunting. 
Wolves are more than capable of planning, reason, and varying degrees of social comprehension.  
This, coupled with incredible amounts of stamina, makes for a very formidable opponent.  
 
I'm honestly not too sure what you're attempting to prove Mr. jcol. (We've seen almost every single rebuttal that you've made concerning the cougar vs. wolf dilemma). 
And yes. Some of us do agree that one on one, the cougar would probably win against the lone wolf. 
But the fact of matter is that wolves are almost always found within a pack, and that pack would be a force to be reckoned with against the solitary cougar. 
 
"You people are cracking me up. Look, why not just accept reality;" 
 
It's funny that you should mention that, because the reality of this situation is that Gray wolves are, 99.9% of the time, found within a social hierarchy. 
But wolves are smart animals, so they would probably back down from the fight before it turned fatal.

Look Yoda, I fully understand that wolves are usually found in packs, we all know this, but please try to understand the PREMISE of the EXERCISE, which is simply; which animal comes out on top in a ONE-ON-ONE situation! 
 
It's NOT Cougar vs. pack of wolves, that would be insane. A lone Cougar would not stand a chance against a pack of Wolves, almost no animal would. A lone Wolf, however, going up against a lone Cougar, will almost always lose. That's all I'm saying. 
 
And I have questions as to just how intelligent a wolf really is. It doesn't take much to understand the hierarchy in a wolf pack. The Alpha male is usually the biggest and strongest, his mate is the top bitch. These two are usually the oldest, as well, but not always. There is no known strategy that Wolves use to hunt prey; the method is to chase it until it tires. Like most predators they'll go for the old, young or sick, before they tackle a healthy animal. 
 
Cougars, on the other hand, are stealth hunters. There's a lot that has to happen for these types of hunters in order to catch thier prey. Aside from being up wind, they also have to judge distance. They're quick, but a long chase is not in thier favour. And they can't cut out a target from the heard, they have to jump on whatever they can, because they fail more times than they succeed. 
 
Cougars, as lone hunters, are pretty intelligent in thier own right.

"And I have questions as to just how intelligent a wolf really is. It doesn't take much to understand the hierarchy in a wolf pack." 
That seems like a rather presumptuous statement concerning the reasoning ability of canines. 
 
First of all, wolves are acutely aware of the subtle nuances that exist within other members of the pack, therefore, one can safely say that wolves display an innate understanding of body language and social comprehension, i.e., they can sense the emotions of other pack members. Mountain lions cannot; they have no need to. 
 
Wolves also exhibit an incredible amount of strategy when hunting. 
The alpha-male is the one who initiates and organizes the hunts, and the other pack members work in unison to take down prey that are much larger than themselves. There's definitely a noticeable degree of planning that's involved when wolves hunt. Is that not an aspect of intelligence? 
 
And yes, you're right about mountain lions relying on stealth. They're quick and efficient when it comes to taking down prey. 
But mountain lions rely mostly on the element of surprise, which makes them bad at long distance hunts. 
 
All in all, though, they're both unique animals which possess amazing characteristics, and I'm pleased to see that you have so much fervent interest towards the cougar. 
 
Peace.

duey, it can be argued that the "innate understanding" exhibited by Wolves of pack hiearchy is due more from behavior instinct than from intelligence. Pups learn from a very young age how a pack works, I.E., body language and social comprehension. 
 
As for hunting strategy, for wolves, there is none, period.  
 
They lay no ambushes like lions and some higher primates do, they simply run thier prey to ground. The alpha male does decide when to hunt, but it's simply a matter of finding prey. There is no planning, other than singling out the young, old or sick, but all predators who work in unison do that. 
 
I have a great appreciation for both Cougars and Wolves, but let's take this for what it is, a one-on-one match between two top predators of North America. 
 
The Cougar wins. 
 
Period.

"As for hunting strategy, for wolves, there is none, period." 
 
I'm afraid you're wrong on this one, and I'll show you an excerpt that proves it. 
"When wolves hunt, their behavior indicates that a great deal of forethought and problem solving ability is involved. For example, they use social cooperation to conduct and perhaps “plan” coordinated attacks. When running into a herd of prey, they continuously test the animals and make decisions on which single animal they eventually will kill. They test them by smell, scattering the herd and looking for weaknesses, and sometimes by waiting. After scattering a herd, wolves may stand and watch their prey, waiting for a weak individual to reveal itself. Once a lone animal is selected, the wolves may chase it only so far. 
 
During this pursuit, the wolves must decide to either continue their attack or call if off. Their decision is based on many factors. Does the animal turn and fight? Is there an apparent weakness such as injury or illness? They must also judge the degree of danger involved. Is there risk of injury? Is it worth the risk? A hungry wolf may decide that it is. A wolf’s life, however, is a hard one. Food is not always available and perhaps great risks are taken often to obtain it. Apparently, these are calculated risks. Unnecessary confrontations are usually avoided. An injury in the wild can be the same as death - it just takes longer. Wolves, therefore, need to be good problem solvers and have the ability to anticipate many dangerous situations."  
 
Another excerpt reports similar findings. 
 
"Wolves don’t hunt with just gut instinct; they do have strategies when hunting. One is to be walking in a single file line towards the prey. Then, have the majority of the wolves' drops down in the grass and the others go on ahead. The others will go and chase the prey back to the others and they will jump up at it, grabbing its flanks and throat in their powerful jaws." 
 
Courtesy of wolfandwildstudies.com

Sorry duey, but that article seems to say that the pack will select the weakest target, which is usually the very young, very old or sick, and that was MY point. I can find no documentated hunt by a wolf pack that demonstrated any strategic undertaking. I can find no recorded instance of a wolf pack laying an ambush for prey. It's not intelligence that calls a pack off the chase so much as it is instinct and experience. It is simply too risky sometimes for the pack to take on strong, healthy prey that can fight back. This is something that almost all predators know and understand. I will say that they have learned that walking single file has two functions; it does disguise the size of the pack, and in the winter season, in deep snow, it makes it easier for the trailing wolves to travel, keeping them fresher during a chase. I couldn't find the website that was your source, I'd love to find it and read up on it. Are you sure it was wolfandwildstudies.com?

http://www.wolfandwildlifestudies.com/learningsets.php 
 
Go to Google, and copy and paste what I've just typed above and you shall find it, my friend.  
 
And the other excerpt is from a different website. Here's the link. 
 
http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0212280/intelligence.htm 
 
Both sources explicitly state how intelligent wolves can be, and once you read them, you'll probably agree. 
 
All you have to do is copy the links that I've just posted and you'll be able to see what I'm talking about. 
Here's another quotes from that same website: 
 
"Wolves are VERY intelligent. How intelligent is very? Intelligent enough to open gates and to use symbols. Intelligent enough to have set up their own means of communication and create and re-create a hierarchy for their pack.  
"Gordon K. Smith, who had a wolf pack in captivity, sometimes observed the wolves attempting to open a gate. Sometimes, they are quite successful. This man believes that the eastern timber wolf does this the best. He believes that some wolves are more mechanically inclined than others. Also, the eastern timber wolf shows emotions more clearly than other wolves. It butters other pack members up to get it's way, and shows depression when it doesn't. It expresses great joy and happiness clearly." 
 
 

Ok, I found the site. It really doesn't tell me much more than you've already pasted. As I'm sure you know, those predator animals that don't operate on behavior instinct, learn most of what they know as pups, watching thier adult parents. They learn to recognize prey (and which animals to avoid), they learn pack hierarchy and how to hunt. Same as Cougars.  
 
Opening a gate is not normal behavior, and at some point, the animal in question must have observed the gate being opened. In the wild, animals either go around, over or under an obstacle. Does opening a gate prove intelligence, I'd say yes, but a lot of animals can learn to do this, even cats.  
 
I'm not saying wolves aren't intelligent, but I'm not willing to say they are more intelligent than a Cougar. 
 
But for the sake of argument, lets say the Wolf IS more intelligent than than the Cougar. Exactly how do you think this is going to be of help in a one-on-one fight with a Cougar? Exactly what can the Wolf do against a bigger, stronger, quicker advesary that has more weopens to bear?

Well, hypothetically speaking, I suppose the wolf could very easily lead the mountain lion on, by tiring the cat out with its high amount of endurance and stamina. Wolves have been known to chase their prey for miles on end.  
If a cougar ever tried to do that, it would fail. But this is beside the point, my friend.  
 
I'm not saying that wolf intelligence would have anything to do with its ability to compete one-on-one with a mountain lion. Because the mountain lion is, like you said, better equipped for a one-on-one battle. 
I was only trying to prove a point: when you doubted how intelligent these animals can be. 
 
"Intelligence: If, as some say, the Wolf is more intelligent, and I have my doubts about that," 
"And I have questions as to just how intelligent a wolf really is." 
 
According to various recorded incidents that have occurred throughout history (I've showed you the links), it's very clear to anyone who has seen the evidence and done the research that wolves, indeed, have very powerful minds. 
 
And I'm sure that mountain lions are quite intelligent, too, but the thing that's so fascinating about wolves, is their similarity to human beings; in the sense that they can bond, and intuitively sense emotions from fellow members of the pack, much like we can with our friends and family.

c'mon duey. You can find that same similarity among a lot of animals that work in packs or prides. 
 
Wild dogs, hyenas (sp) and Lions just to name a few. This dynamic has to exist among animals that hunt and live together or else chaos would happen.  
 
 
 
Look, there is no "tiring" a cougar out in a fight to the death. 
 
The wolf is not going to employ the "rope-a-dope" tactic, it's either fight or flight, and if it's fight, it won't take long for the wolf to realize it made the wrong choice, it's gonna die long before the cougar gets tired. 
 
As for the intelligence of the wolf, I stand by my statement. Most of what you're saying is just instinct and behavior that is learned as pups watching adults. But I will say that a wolf IS intelligent and leave it at that.

I don't care what you say jcol. It is obvious that you are a biased cougar fanboy. I know the cougar is a more formidable predator, but if a large timber wolf gets its jaws around the cougars neck, its bye bye for the cougar. That's something you cant argue. I know your rebuttal will be "if" the wolf gets its jaws on its neck, but neither you or I have ever witnessed first hand a one on one fight between cougar and wolf, so all or our arguments are just worthless.

Mr. jcol, I was speaking from a hypothetical standpoint, and I'm surprised that you would actually take that to heart. In other words, anything could happen if these two animals went at it. 
There are no absolute outcomes because that's not how things work within nature; things are always subject to change. Nature is all about change. 
 
I also don't feel the need to reiterate what I've stated from my previous posts, because I feel that I've already proven my point by showing you the evidence of the wolves' cognitive abilities, which you so arrogantly dismissed in your earlier posts. 
 

Well first of all I would like to mention that I am a wildlife biologist and I have observed North American Apex predators for over 15 years. I have seen numerous confrontations with wolves and cougars, and I have never witnessed a cougar even try to attempt to take on a wolf whether its one on one or in a pack. This is easily explained that Cougars are solitary hunters that rely on their hunting abilities to survive. Therefore they are very intelligent creatures, they know that if they risk themselves to injury against wolf or wolves they will die a slow death of starvation, thus making them very reluctant. Wolves on the other hand are known for feeding other members of the pack if they are injured or sick. The cougar does not have that luxury. The only time that a cougar would challenge a wolf one on one is if it is cornered. In that case a cougar is a force to be reckoned with. Now wolves aren't poodles they are also very strong and fierce unlike cougars wolves actually have experience in combat due to conflicts within the pack or from other rival packs. All predators even cougars target the young and weak, just because they do does not make them lesser of an predator, they do this to survive its called natural selection or survival of the fittest. They also target the young or weak to have an advantage over prey that is usually much larger then themselves. Arr is absolutely right that if a wolf locks its jaws around a cougars neck, the cougar will most certainly die, (1,000 lbs psi jaw strength) but if it doesn't the cougar can and will most likely kill it. For the most part that scenario is highly unlikely due to the fact that these predators frequently avoid each other, not to mention wolves are a social predator and almost always are in packs, therefore a cougar would not stand a chance. Now on intelligence both of these animals are very intelligent, but what separates wolves is their social structure very similar to ours, it is not uncommon that alpha wolves keep their mates and live by them for life. The mother usually stays in the den with her cubs while the father and the rest of the pack hunt, and they come back to feed them. When the mother wolf wants alone time the other female wolves will watch over her young, these are just a few prime examples of the wolves social structure and their similarities with humans. They are both very beautiful animals and should be appreciated and conserved.

arr, duey, I don't know if you guys are being deliberatly obtuse, or if you're truely ignorant. I am not going by hypotheticals, nor am I ignoring the fact that indeed, anything can happen during a fight between these two predators. 
 
Hypothetically speaking, if the Wolf could pull a knife on the Cougar, that would improve his chances, wouldn't it? 
 
Arr, quit being a wuss and place your bet, kid. Pick a winner and back it up with whatever fact you can find, otherwise you bring nothing to the table, and you're just wasting space. If you think the Wolf's best chance is that "anything can happen", then odds are it's going to be a bad day for the Wolf. 
 
Duey, I'm surprised that you didn't recognize a bit of sarcasm on my part. Yeah, I know all about nature and how unpredictable it is, but in the animal kingdom, instinct and behavior usually determines how animals act and react, in any given situation. 
 
With all that said, I agree that wolves are intelligent, I'm just not prepared to say they're any more intelligent than Cougars. 
 
So it all comes down to this; 
 
with everything being equal, I ask both of you, make your choice; 
 
Cougar or Wolf? 
 
One-on-one, who wins? 
 
No ifs, no knife, no help from a pack, just two top predators going at it.  
 
I say Cougar.

Like any given sunday any team can win, the cougar is New England, the wolf are the New York Giants, I picked the Giants in the upset and I pick the under dog wolf in the upset over the cougar.

Talking about ignorant, your comment about if a wolf pulls a knife on a cougar just shows that you are the ignornat one. Every thing we are commenting is purely hypotheticals, its not like you had first row tickets at a cougar v wolf match at the MGM. Get real Jcol and just accept that you love cougars and in your opinion you think that the cougar would demolish a wolf every single time. Now in my opinion both creatures are formidable and both have the potential to tear each other up. Its not like we are comparing elephant versus ants. We are comparing two large fierce predators.

My money is on the Wolf. I come from Canada and where im from there is a underground following of people who like to fight wild animals, I have seen first hand Wolves killing cougars so I have no doubt about it. But cougars have won to. They are equally matched. I know cougars have retractable claws and we think that gives them a great advantage and sometimes it does. But the inability of wolves being able to use its claws is also the wolves advantage because they have no other choice but to go straight for the neck and locking their jaws and breaking its neck, while the feline demonstrates domestic cat attributes of trying to toy around with its opponent with its claws. Most fights are pretty quick and straight to the point with wolves killing the cougar, but if the fight lasts more then 30 seconds that probably indicates the cougar wins because the wolf was not successful in lunging for the neck.

Good golly, ARR. The remark about the Wolf pulling a knife on the Cougar was a JOKE. 
 
You can't be this dense. I was being sarcastic. 
 
Actually, if the Wolf was really intelligent, it'd pull a .44 mag, or something like that. 
 
My contention is that A Cougar beats a Wolf. If they fought ten times, I would never say that the Cougar wins ten times. As you say, "anything can happen". 
 
But the premise is ONE fight, between these two predators. Let's not muddy the waters with talk about behavior, instinct, intelligence, packs or anything else other than it comes down to the point where one animal decides to attack the other, for whatever reason you want to pick. 
 
ONE single fight, one night only. Put it on pay-per-view if ya want. 
 
If you had to bet your LIFE, on this one single battle, would you still take the Wolf? 
 
If you're being realistic, I say no. If you have some kinda weird attraction, man on dog kinda thing, then go with the Wolf. 
 
All I'm saying is this; 
 
the odds are that the Cougar wins the fight. 
 
That's ALL i'm saying. 
 

What about your weird attraction to cougars it seems like you think that the cougars shit doesn't stink (thats a sarcastic joke by the way). This a opinionated debate not a wager on peoples lives. But if I were to bet I already said that my money is on the wolf whether I am wrong or right. Its just my opinion. I dont know whether or not marky is telling the truth, but it actually makes sense, wolves have no choice but to go for the neck since they dont have diamond encrusted claws that your beloved cougar has. Im just saying if the wolf goes for the neck and is successful it would kill it. Jimmy81 is a wildlife biologist and he said that wolves jaws can exert force of 1000 lbs a sq inch , i did some research and indeed I have read claims of 750, 900, even more. So if the wolf does clamp on the neck it would kill the cougar cold. I am a mechanic and if I were to put 1000 lbs of pressure on your skull in a vice it would crush it. Now think about a wolf on a cougars soft neck. Even the stupid short you tube video shows a wolf going straight for the neck, now it looks like it wasnt successful but thats just one encounter and one video, what about other times when the wolf was successful. Jcol you are just in denial. I on the other hand admit that the cougar has potential to kill a full grown alpha wolf, but you wont give a punchers chance to the wolf of having the potential of killing a cougar. That just show you are very biased, that just makes you lose credibility.

Hell, this is like talking to my 2yr old. You're just not getting it, are ya? 
 
I agree that anything can happen, yeah, the Wolf might get lucky and could actually win. I'm saying that that the odds are with the Cougar. Surely, you can admit to that. You say I don't have credibility, that's fine. I won't lose any sleep over that. I'm not really sure you have a clue as to the dynamics of what a fight between the two would actually entail. Although no one can predict how the fight would evolve, I think I can safely say that the Cougar is just not gonna leave himself open for the Wolf to stroll right in and chomp on his neck. The Cat is just too quick for that. While the Wolf is TRYING to get in that killing bite, the Cougar is already killing him by bringing all four claws and his own considerable bite into action. and remember son, once the Cougar has the Wolf down, it's game over for the dog. The Cougar has the strength to keep him down. 
 
I don't know from any underground animal fight club in Canada. There may be, but I have doubts about them pitting full-grown Wolves against a full-grown Cougar. 
 
Ok. At this point, we're just talking past each other, and since my ol' pappy said never to argue with an idiot (people might not know the difference), let's agree that I'm right and you're wrong 
 
and leave it at that. 
 
If that doesn't suit ya, let's just agree to disagree.

Obviously, jcol, your ol' pappy never sat down to talk with you about the proper rules of debating. 
 
Certainly, one of the most important rules that you've broken, is keeping the argument within logical boundaries. 
The problem with you is that when you fail to make a point, or fail to acknowledge points made by others, you either insult them or brush them off completely. 
 
Therefore, your arguments can be considered invalid, because for one, you insulted the person who was only trying to establish a point. And two, you seem to a have a bit of a listening problem, and a definite favoritism towards cougars. 
It's also become quite apparent to me that because of your inability to stay within logical boundaries, that your opinions have very little credibility. 
Ad hominem is a poor way to get expelled from an argument, and I'm surprised that you haven't realized that. 
 
You speak of the mountain lion as if it would win each and every time, but nature is not about absolutism. It's about chance, opportunity and spontaneity. You're thinking about this situation in an entirely subjective manner because of your proclivity towards cougars. 

Yoda, use the force and look back at my last post. I clearly said that the Wolf might get lucky and actually win, but my opinion is that it's not likely. 
 
You have just done what you have accused me of doing. I've no intention of insulting anybody, I am, again, just stating my opinion. If you find that insulting, that's your problem. 
 
The arguments I have used are indeed within "logical boundries", but apparently, you have trouble with the SIMPLE PREMISE of who comes out on top in a fight between a Wolf and a Cougar. My preference of the Cougar over the Wolf is due to the fact that I think the Cougar wins the battle. 
 
When you take into account that the Cougar is larger, stronger, quicker has five points of weopons and is used to killing animals much larger than itself, BY ITSELF, I'm not sure how anyone can come to a different conclusion. 
 
You keep wanting to throw in the factor of "chance", or "luck" if you will, into the fight. That's not what this little exercise is about. Golly gee, Yoda. We ALL understand how nature works. Cougars, being solitary animals, will try to avoid conflict, it can't take the chance of being injured, but AGAIN, it's simply about who would win, if it ever came to a fight. Take only the strengths and weaknesses of both animals, and let's see who come out on top. Take "chance and "luck" out of the equation. 
 
I can do that, and have concluded that the Cougar wins. 
 
You, on the other hand, feel that the Wolf must have some kind of luck on his side, in order to win. 
 
Am I right to make that assumption? 
 
If so, I'm not sure what your beef with me is, other than you think I'm somehow insulting somebody.  
 
Son, believe me when I say, if I really wanted to insult somebody, I would. 
 
But I'm trying not to.

In your previous posts, you have insulted people more than a few times: 
"You can't be this dense. I was being sarcastic." 
"At this point, we're just talking past each other, and since my ol' pappy said never to argue with an idiot (people might not know the difference), let's agree that I'm right and you're wrong."  
If you're being realistic, I say no. "If you have some kinda weird attraction, man on dog kinda thing, then go with the Wolf."  
 
I, on the other hand, have not written any insults towards you or your opinions. 
I was only trying to explain to you that you can't blatantly insult other people for their opinions just because they happen to make valid points. 
 
"You, on the other hand, feel that the Wolf must have some kind of luck on his side, in order to win." 
I never said that the wolf must have "some kind of luck on his side." You are not right in your assumption. You have clearly taken what I said out of context so that it can fit into your own subjective version of what happens within the natural world. What I clearly said was nature is not about absolutism. There are multiple variables that can come into play. So for you to say that "the cougar would win every time" is, well, unknowable. 
But since you're trying so desperately hard to convince everyone that you're right, it would also be mean that the burden of proof is on you to prove that it's true. 

Yoda, at the risk of sounding like I'm insulting you, I'm gonna try just one more time to explain this to you; 
 
IT IS JUST MY OPINION! 
 
There is no burden of proof, for ANYONE. No one is on trial here. 
 
I have stated my reasons as to why I think the Cougar wins this fight. 
 
I have said that, if the there were 10 fights between them, I could not, and would not say that the Cougar would win everytime. 
 
Go back and look it up. I have simply said that I believe the Cougar wins in a one-on-one fight, but it's impossible to say the Cougar wins EVERYTIME. 
 
If it's just one fight Yoda, JUST ONE, Cougar vs. Wolf, throw out the varibles, the luck and the pack and whatever else you can think of, and just put the two animals together and let them fight.  
 
HOW HARD CAN THIS BE???  
 
I can see where I may have been harsh with some posters, but when I read that a Wolf can bite a car in two, or break the back of an Elk or Cougar with his powerful arms, how else am I supposed to respond to these Moonbats? It's beyond stupidity, and I felt compelled to call them on it. 
 
So I can be harsh, yeah. And I'm about to get that way again, because quite frankly, you're not offering much with your "nature can be unpredictable " routine. 
 
Really, Sherlock? And why is it you think nobody else knows this? 
 
These varibles you talk about, you think they're only gonna break for the Wolf? Can the Cat get some love, too? Since there's no way to predict what, if anything, will happen, why not just judge it by what's in front us? 
 
When it all boils down to gravy, we're left with two animals facing one another; one, the Cougar, has the edge in almost every category that matters. This is not "chance" or "luck", this is a cold, hard fact. 
 
Tell me why it is you still think the Wolf wins? After all, since most people seem to agree with me (see the poll), that the Cougar wins. IF there's a burden to bear, it's on you, not me.

Well Jcol it looks like you are coming around, before you never gave a wolf a chance in hell to beat your beloved cougar, but recently you have stated that you don't think the cougar would win 10 times out of ten. But I bet you think it wins 9.99 out of ten huh? I saw an old video of a wolverine fighting a wolf, the wolverine was clawing viciously at the wolf but the effectiveness of its claw attacks were minimized by the thick wolfs winter coat, the narrator stated that if the fight took place in the summer time that the claw attacks would have been more effective. So this leads me to believe that if a cougar attacked a wolf while it had its very thick winter fur, it would most certainly negate the four weapons that you are so fond of, then this would even the playing field thus making them both fight solely with their jaws. This is a variable that you have neglected to take into consideration. You say that the cougar is very quick and indeed it is, but wolves are very quick to, in fact wolverines are probably quicker then both cougars and wolves, but the feisty wolverine landed maybe a 1/3 of its claw attacks due to the wolf dodging its attacks in a defensive stance by hoping backwards then forward with its own counter attack. You also state that cougars take down prey much larger then themselves, but I have seen plenty of footage and I have never ever seen a cougar killing anything bigger then a large deer which aren't that much bigger then themselves. You would be insane to think that a cougar can single handedly take down a fully grown healthy bison, moose, elk, or caribou. They would need to hunt in packs like wolves or lions to be successful at such a feat. Now if the variables are on the cougars side, like encountering a lone omega wolf it would defeat it easily. If it faced a alpha wolf with a thin summer coat it would defeat the wolf probably 7 times out of ten. But if it faced a Alpha Wolf with a thick winter coat I would have to say that the wolf would have the upper hand probably 6 times out of ten. Now these aren't official statistics since there isn't any data to support it but are just my own opinionated estimation. These are both fierce creatures but there are to many variables to think that cougars would almost always beat wolves with overwhelming odds. Well at least you have came around and have given the wolf a lucky punchers chance, but I just believe that it isn't luck but rather skill and determination that these beasts possess. Even if the wolf doesn't kill the cougar but just injures it the cougar would eventually die of starvation. And if the cougar injures the wolf it has the rest of the pack to help feed it. That's why in my humble opinion the wolf is a superior predator.  
 
 
 

The reason why I made that reference towards nature and spontaneity, is because you seem to take this little tidbit of information for granted with your haughty attitude towards other peoples' opinions. 
 
I've already seen someone on here prove you wrong about the wolf intelligence thing that you so smugly discredited as being "instinct and behavior."  
But what you failed to realize is that intelligence is also a huge part of instinct and behavior.  
"Most of what you're saying is just instinct and behavior that is learned as pups watching adults." 
 
Yeah, really? So why isn't that a facet of intelligence? 
 
I still think there's a very good chance that the wolf could possibly win. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying that it's absolute, like you so proudly proclaimed in many of your earlier posts. 
Based on the fact that the wolf could use it's tremendous bite force to grab hold of the cougars neck, and hence break its spinal cord. 
If a large, Alpha wolf, with a thick winter coat, latches itself onto the back of the mountain lion's neck, it's all over for the cat. But if the cat is quick enough to incapacitate the wolf before it delivers that one fatal blow, then the cat would win. 
 

Well ARR, how about the soft underbelly of the Wolf? Not much thick fur there. Large cats, just like housecats, even when on thier backs, can bring thier hind-claws into play, raking the belly and legs. Other large prey, and yes, a Cougar will go after Elk and even Moose, both of them have thick winter fur, as well. 
 
It should be noted ARR, that the Cougar will go for the killing bite at the throat. It can very easily penetrate through the fur, they have evolved to do just that. 
 
I have a great respect for Wolves, and even a Grizzly Bear would be hard pressed to stand against a pack, but I have to take this little event as it was presented; 
 
A full grown male Cougar against a full grown male Wolf. On average, the Cougar is bigger and stronger, quicker and more agile. It has jaws and claws, as opposed to the Wolf, who only has his jaws, formidable though they may be. 
 
Who wins? 
 
We disagree, but I'm willing to say you have made some valid points, in defense of the Wolf. 
 
I hope that I've done the same for the Cougar. 
 
My opinion, and it's only my opinion, is that the Big Cat comes out on top, because the Cougar is used to catching and killing large prey, by itself. The Cougar is incredibably strong and it's instinct is to kill. 
 
That's why I respectfully say that if it's a one-on-one fight, the Cougar wins, maybe 8 out of ten times. This is not to slight the Wolf, just my opinion that the Big Cat may just be the 2nd top predator, in North America

I totally agree with you Yoda, it could go either way. Not all wolves or cougars are created equal. I have also read that cougars generally run away from other predators and will only stand their ground when cornered, which is really rare since cougars are so agile they could quickly elude almost anything. That just means that it instantly forfeits the fight thus losing. Just like in war if you retreat you lose.

You make a good point about the wolfs underbelly, but that just proves my point about it taking certain variables to analyze and determine the winner in a hypothetical battle between these Apex predators. The same way you asked once, do you think the cougar is just going to pick his head up and expose his skinny neck at the wolf and say have at it big boy, well I ask, do you thing the big fuzzy playful wolf is just going to roll over on his back and ask for a doggy bisquit? They both would fight to the death and they both would hold their ground, and they both are more then capable of tearing the guts out of each other. I agree the cougar has the upper hand in most scenarios but I am reluctant to underestimate the big bad Alpha wolf. I know the cougar wont.

I still don't think a cougar can take down a FULLY HEALTHY grown moose or caribou, maybe a old, young or sick one. I've seen videos of mountain rams chase off cougars. Now imagine a 2,000 lb bull moose charging a 200 lb puma. Its just hard to believe. I would need to see a video to believe. Even in the prime setting. A big moose is eating peacefully under a cliff and a cougar stealthily ambushes it and jumps on its back, the moose just gets up and shakes it off and pounces on it to death. Or the cougar just runs off causing minimal damage to the moose's back, I highly doubt it can just lock its jaws and use its weight to bring the moose to the ground, reminiscent of lions or tigers. Even lions have only a 30% success rate on taking down wildebeest. If you know of a video out there of a cougar killing a fully grown healthy moose, please enlighten me.

Yoda, if you don't know the difference between intelligence and learned behavior and animal instinct, then you're nowhere near as smart as I once thought you were. 
 
There are animals that never spend a moment with the adult animals that gave birth to them, yet even in the earliest moments of life, they act on instinct. Sea Turttles, upon hatching, instinctively know to make a run for the ocean. Marsupials (sp), upon birth, know to make the long climb up thier mothers body, to reach the pouch, where they will be safe. This is instinct. 
 
Baby rabbits learn from watching adults to stay still when danger is in the area, to not move until they have to. The Pavlov's Dog experiment is a perfect example of learned behavior, while watching a squirrell figure out how to get the seed out of a bird-feeder, is problem-solving, a sign of intelligence. 
 
Targeting the weakest animal out of the herd is not so much intelligence as it is learned behavior. 
 
There is a big difference between teaching an animal to do a trick, and then claiming the animal is intelligent. 
 
Apparently, you're not aware of that. 
 
Was that "haughty" enough for you? 
 
Let's stop the petty back and forth, it's not getting us anywhere, and to be honest, it bores the hell out of me. 
 
You've made it clear Yoda, that you don't care for the way I answer some of the posters, and I'm not sure I can express in words, how little I care.  
 
You simply refuse to understand what this site is all about. 
 
You want to throw in a bunch of "what if's", and you're trying to make a straight-foward proposition, into something else, altogether. 
 
Yes I proudly proclaim that I believe that the Cougar would win such an encounter, and I say so with unwavering conviction. I have said that the Cougar will  
 
"almost always" win. Can the Wolf win? anything is possible, but some things just aren't probable. 
 
You can throw in a thousand "if's" 
 
if it makes you feel better. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

ARR, I don't know of any video that actually shows a Cougar attacking a bull Moose, but I've heard of it happening to smaller moose weighing in excess of 800lbs. 
 
The Cougar is a fearless hunter, and if it gets the killing bite at the neck, it can bring down larger prey. look, the Cougar is a solitary animal. It will try to avoid conflict if it can, because it can ill afford to be injured. But don't confuse avoiding conflict with somehow being afraid, or cowardly. The cat will fight when it has to. Even a Wolf pack has been known to give up a kill, when a big, hungry male Grizzly wants food.

Well, jcol, let's see what the dictionary says about intelligence. 
 
"The capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc." 
"The faculty of understanding." 
 
And if you remember correctly, duey actually showed you several links that demonstrated how wolves used their intelligence. 
Thus proving your brilliant theory to be wrong: "I also don't feel the need to reiterate what I've stated from my previous posts, because I feel that I've already proven my point: by showing you the evidence of the wolves' cognitive abilities, which you so arrogantly dismissed in your earlier posts."  
 
You're absolutely right that animals operate on instinct and learned behavior; I'm not denying that at all.  
What I was trying to tell you is that it's all part of an organisms overall level of intelligence, or cognitive ability.  
"There is a big difference between teaching an animal to do a trick, and then claiming the animal is intelligent."  
Well, wouldn't being able to learn how to do something useful (whether it's for survival or recreation), wouldn't that also count as a form of intelligence, too? 
I always thought the acquisition of knowledge was a sign of general intelligence as well. Whether it be from a pup/cup learning to hunt, or from a dog learning to do tricks. But, apparently, you know better, and at this point, I'm willing to say that you're right about everything.  
 
Or, if you were really that clever, you would've undoubtedly realized that I've successfully busted your balls over the past few days. And you actually took it seriously, and decided to argue your point with someone who could give less than a rats rear end. 
 
"You've made it clear Yoda, that you don't care for the way I answer some of the posters, and I'm not sure I can express in words, how little I care." 
 
But if you really don't care, then why are you trying so hard to prove everyone wrong?  

Each person who came on claiming the wolf as the victor in this fight emphatically proved that they know nothing about these animals. Wolves only have the advantage in a pack. I've seen a cougar dismantle a pack of hunting dogs, which is not the equivilent, but it's telling. One wolf, regardless of the circumstances of the fight or the attack, stands only to lose his life in a toe to toe with a cougar. And for the record, if we're going to use the biggest baddest wolf available(180lbs.), then lets use the biggest cougar available--over 300lbs...that's the record for the largest cougar to date. Not even a fair match-up, we should be talkin cougar vs bear.

u need a life

Panther d, 300lbs give me a break. Where is that 300 lb cougar available? I would like to have one, so I can order it to disembowel your stupidity. Putting that aside in my opinion it could go either way there are good arguments on both sides so I wont reiterate. These beasts are both ferocious in their own right. Oh by the way why would we want to talk about cougar v bear. Even if your imaginary 300 lb cougar existed it would stand no match to a 800 lb plus brown bear, you are just showing how naive you are, but how can we expect to get unbiased commentary from a person that names himself panther d. He must think the cougar could take on a M1 Abrams tank or something. How comical.

Jcol here is a direct quote from an online encyclopedia source aka wikipedia. In reference to the natural predators moose face. 
 
 
 
 
 
An Iron age saddle from Siberia, depicting a moose being hunted by a Siberian tiger  
 
A moose battling a wolf pack, as illustrated in The Natural History of Quadrupeds by Frederick Shoberl, 1834A full-grown moose has few enemies, but a pack of wolves can still pose a threat, especially to females with calves.[16] Siberian Tigers [17] and Brown Bear[18][19] are also known to prey on juvenile moose, although bears are more likely to take over a wolf kill than to hunt moose on their own.[20] American Black Bears and Cougars can be significant predators of moose calves in May and June.[21][22] 
 
 
 
In some areas, moose are the primary source of food for wolves. Moose usually flee upon detecting wolves. Wolves usually follow moose at a distance of 100–400 meters, occasionally at a distance of 2–3 km. Attacks from wolves against young moose may last seconds, though sometimes they can be drawn out for days with adults. Sometimes, wolves will chase moose into shallow streams or onto frozen rivers, where their mobility is greatly impeded. Moose will sometimes stand their ground and defend themselves by charging at the wolves or lashing out at them with their powerful hooves. Wolves typically kill moose by tearing at their haunches and perineum, causing massive blood loss. Occasionally, a wolf may immobilise a moose by biting its sensitive nose, the pain of which can paralyze a moose.[23] Wolf packs primarily target calves and elderly animals, but can and will take healthy, adult moose. Moose between the ages of two and eight are rarely killed by wolves.[24] Though moose are usually hunted by packs, there are cases in which single wolves have successfully killed moose.[25] 
 
 
 
In your previous post you said that you have "heard" of cases of cougars taking down 800lb moose, but do you actually have a documented proof of such occurrences? I haven't, but if you have any sources let me know. In the above article it clearly states that cougars can pose a threat to calves, not fully grown healthy bull or cow moose. Cougars just don't have the stamina to deal with such a overwhelming powerful creature. On the flip side wolves have been known to kill moose without the help from a pack, and this is how they accomplish it. They have the stamina to chase the moose for hours upon hours until the moose reaches complete exhaustion and collapses due to fatigue, the rest is history. 
 
 
 
About intelligence the last time I checked learned behaviour is also a form of intelligence. A human is not born with the ability to perform open heart surgery, they learn and study. The capacity to learn and adapt in my opinion is the epitome of intelligence.

Yoda, you couldn't bust my balls if I cut 'em off, lay 'em on a table and gave you a hammer and told you to whack away. You're not fooling anyone. You get offended because you don't have a sense of humor, and can't understand when someone is yanking somebody else's chain. You got your panties all twisted up and just had to jump in. 
 
And that's ok. I've got time to waste, might as well waste it on you. Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right, etc.... 
 
Pay attention, maybe you'll learn something, but I doubt it. 
 
The links that duey showed me, in my opinion, were more about behavior and instinct. They talked about hunting techniques, and pack hierarchy, of which, members learn as pups, from watching the adult members. But guess what? Look at ANY animal that lives within a pack-like structure, and you'll find the same characteristics. These are parents teaching thier young on how to survive, how to hunt, what to hunt, what to avoid, etc. 
 
Does it take intelligence to learn these things? To a certain degree, yes. But it doesn't mean the animal in question, is SUPER-intelligent, as some are trying to make out. Animals are predisposed to act or react in certain ways from years of evolution. I contend that this doesn't take intelligence so much as it's just nature doing it's thing. With that said, try to understand that I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong. People can believe whatever they WANT to believe. I have, however, exposed you as a puffed-up, psuedo-intellectual, who just doesn't get it.

ARR, This is from Wikipedia; 
 
 
 
[edit] Hunting and diet 
 
A successful generalist predator, the cougar will eat any animal it can catch, from insects to large ungulates (over 500 kg). Like all cats, it is an obligate carnivore, feeding only on meat. The Mean weight of vertebrate prey (MWVP) was positively correlated (r=0.875) with puma body weight and inversely correlated (r=-0.836) with food niche breadth in all America. In general, MWVP was lower in areas closer to the Equator.[3] Its most important prey species are various deer species, particularly in North America; mule deer, white-tailed deer, elk, and even the large moose are taken by the cat. Other species such as Bighorn Sheep, wild horses of Arizona, domestic horses, and domestic livestock such as cattle and sheep are also primary food bases in many areas.[30] A survey of North America research found 68% of prey items were ungulates, especially deer. Only the Florida Panther showed variation, often preferring feral hogs and armadillos.[3] Cougars are ambush predators, feeding mostly on deer and other mammals.Investigation in Yellowstone National Park showed that elk, followed by mule deer, were the cougar's primary targets; the prey base is shared with the park's gray wolves, with whom the cougar competes for resources.[31] Another study on winter kills (November–April) in Alberta showed that ungulates accounted for greater than 99% of the cougar diet. Learned, individual prey recognition was observed, as some cougars rarely killed bighorn sheep, while others relied heavily on the species.[32] 
 
 
 
In the Central and South American cougar range, the ratio of deer in the diet declines. Small to mid-size mammals are preferred, including large rodents such as the capybara. Ungulates accounted for only 35% of prey items in one survey, approximately half that of North America. Competition with the larger jaguar has been suggested for the decline in the size of prey items.[3] Other listed prey species of the cougar include mice, porcupine, and hares. Birds and small reptiles are sometimes preyed upon in the south, but this is rarely recorded in North America.[3] 
 
 
 
Though capable of sprinting, the cougar is typically an ambush predator. It stalks through brush and trees, across ledges, or other covered spots, before delivering a powerful leap onto the back of its prey and a suffocating neck bite. The cougar is capable of breaking the neck of some of its smaller prey with a strong bite and momentum bearing the animal to the ground.[22] 
 
 
 
Kills are generally estimated at around one large ungulate every two weeks. The period shrinks for females raising young, and may be as short as one kill every three days when cubs are nearly mature at around 15 months.[19] The cat drags a kill to a preferred spot, covers it with brush, and returns to feed over a period of days. It is generally reported that the cougar is a non-scavenger and will rarely consume prey it has not killed; but deer carcasses left exposed for study were scavenged by cougars in California, suggesting more opportunistic behavior 
 

Jcol I agree with you that wolves don't possess super intelligence, but they do exhibit more intelligence then most animals. I think it is amazing how the alpha wolf uses his authority to pin his ears back, point and single out the target in a herd of prey. Then it orders his pack to funnel the targeted prey away from the herd and into the open field away from the defense of other members in its herd. Such perceived strategy and coordination demonstrates the mental capacity of tactics. Even native Americans credit some of their ancestors hunting stratigies coming directly by observation of wolves hunting tactics.(Before the invention of the bow and arrow) So if a human race can learn from this species proves without a shadow of a doubt the wolf's intelligence, although not being super intelligence, but intelligence none the less.

ARR, I think early man learned much of what they knew about hunting from observing predators like Wolves. again, I have a great appreciation foe the Wolf, and ALL wildlife, but there's something about watching a top predator, lone hunter or pack, go after prey. 
 
 
 
The point of attack, when the kill is made, is such a primal thing that brings out the "beast" in us.

Wow that's incredible 500kg is over 1,000lbs. I still find it hard to believe. Its like a lion taking down an rhinoceros if you equate proportions. Now it said it would eat anything it can catch but kill is another matter. Even a coyote could catch a dead moose. (Hahaha just kidding) But seriously even a coyote could catch and kill a sick or weakened 1000lb moose. The article does not conclusively specify the health conditions of the animal, so I still stand behind my claim that a cougar could not take down a FULLY GROWN HEALTHY bull moose in its prime. Having said that I can see a sick/injured one or an elderly weak one being taken out though.

That must have been one hungry Cat... 
 
I'm of a mind to say that prey that big is not what a Cougar would normally go after, the cat had to have been desperate. Being an ambush predator however, I don't think the Cougar has much say as to if the prey is sick or healthy. 
 
 
 
They pretty much take what they can catch. But 1,000lb is something that doesn't happen very often.

And I have to say that, although I don't know if the 1000lb moose was healthy or sick, I do know it wasn't feeling too well when the Cougar got done with him. :)

They are both tough, but I think the wolf is tougher, because they have more experience in combat because they fight other wolves in their pack and wolves in rival packs to determine dominance and territory. Cougar mostly avoid confrontation they rarely even fight each other. I think the wolves powerful jaws, stamina, fighting experience and quickness slightly outweigh the cougars agility, claws, and slight size advantage. My opinion wolf wins.

Jcol if a wolf can discern and distinguish a sick or injured animal, don't you think the cougar can as well? You yourself have said that you are not willing to accept that wolves are more intelligent then cougars. I smell a contradiction my friend. The fact of the matter is that both predators can tell the difference. Therefore targeting the young and weak to have the advantage of a easy meal. That just displays the intelligence of both predators. Here's a analogy, would you climb Mt Everest to pick a berry that you can purchase at your local grocery store? Cougars and Wolves are both smart and opportunistic they would prefer the quick easy meal over the hard nearly impossible one, unless they are both starving and desperate.

ARR, I didn't say a cougar couldn't discern a sick or unhealthy animal, it's just that the cougar is a stealth, ambush hunter. It get's as close as it can to it's prey because it has to. 
 
He doesn't have the luxury of choosing the sick, weak or old, he has to go with whatever is close. He can chase, but he doesn't have the stamina of the Wolf. 
 
 
 
Wolves can pick out a single animal and effectively cut it out from the heard, during the chase.

Well, jcol, what can I possibly say to that? 
It seems as if you've outdone yourself yet again, with your own rendition of what you think is right. But being that I'm a "puffed up, pseudo-intellectual," I guess this should be pretty easy to understand. 
 
My good sir, jcol, thank you for proving my point: It just goes to show how uncertain you are about your opinions, when you have to resort to petulant name-calling because someone else refuted your point of view with a well reasoned argument. 
But even a pseudo-intellectual like myself can tell when someone has contradicted himself, but yet again you failed to realize that. 
And being that I'm a "pseudo-intellectual," I've realized that it's better to use logic than to resort to ad hominem, which you have become well know for. At least in this argument, anyway. 
 
"The links that duey showed me, in my opinion, were more about behavior and instinct." 
 
I think one of the other links that duey showed you talked about how wolves in captivity were once observed trying to open up a gate, but you didn't acknowledge that. So I'll re-post just for your convenience, because you're my buddy. :-) 
 
"Gordon K. Smith, who had a wolf pack in captivity, sometimes observed the wolves attempting to open a gate. Sometimes, they are quite successful. This man believes that the eastern timber wolf does this the best. He believes that some wolves are more mechanically inclined than others. Also, the eastern timber wolf shows emotions more clearly than other wolves. It butters other pack members up to get it's way, and shows depression when it doesn't. It expresses great joy and happiness clearly." 
 
Again, jcol, I never said that wolves demonstrated "super intelligence." I'm not sure where you got that idea from. I also can't remember the last time White Fang was ever awarded a Nobel prize in physics. <Insert joke here. 
 
So much for not having a sense of humor, huh? 
 
But something tells me you won't be able to ignore this rebuttal either, and you'll end up writing out yet another long-winded diatribe about how swell-headed and puffed up I am. So go ahead, buddy. I'm counting on it. 
After all, you do have time to waste, and I should feel privileged enough to have you spent that time on me. 
 
I have, after all, proved that you cannot retort back to my comments without using childish insults.  
 
 

Yoda, for someone who "doesn't give a rat's ass", you sure do get offended easily. Go back and READ my post, I do indeed address the "Wolf opens gate" story. 
 
There is nothing new in this rebuttal to respond to, really. 
 
I've yet to see a "well reasoned" argument from you, in truth, I don't think you're capable of it. 
 
When I post something, I'm usually pretty confident that I have it right. That doesn't mean that I AM right, but there's nothing wrong with stating an opinion in a forth-right manner. You seem to be upset that I'm not on the fence on this dispute. Why? 
 
Weigh the evidence, look at the facts and make your choice. Then we debate. Yes, it can become heated, but you're throwing red herrings into the process with your "what if" scenarios. 
 
ANd Yoda, understand me on this, and I'll type slowly to make it easier for you; I do NOT engage in "petulant name-calling". 
 
I only do mature, he-man, masculine type, name-calling. 
 
If you're too sensitive for that, stay clear. 
 
I can't be responsible for your feelings.

SAY, NIMROD, if you'll simply dig deeper you can find the info just as easily as i did on the largest cougar on record; got no reason to make up weight ranges 'cause it doesnt matter; just thought it was a point of interest. I know what a cougar can take on, thats any other predator in their range. See i learned a long long time ago that reading is fundamental; try it and you'll actually LEARN stuff too!

I have done my research and found that the largest recorded cougar came in at 276 not over 300lbs. And that was a freak of nature, not a common occurence. It is very unlikely that wolves encounter on a frequent basis cougars this large. I dont doubt for one bit that a 250lb plus cougar would easily kill a average sized wolf. But your suggestion of cougars taking on grizzly bears or any bear other then small black bears is absurd. The better fight would be cougars versus wolfs by far. According to animal planet.com the average size of male cougars are around 195 lbs. The average size of a male alpha timber wolf is around 160 with some cases of 185 lb plus specimens being recorded and even freak of nature artic wolves reaching 215 lbs. An average size cougar versus a large alpha wolf, I like the wolf's chances. Although I do realize that the cougar has the upperhand, but not always.

The only question I have, nimrod, is WHY do you like the Wolf's chances? 
 
Clearly, the Cougar is larger, stronger, quicker and is used to killing prey larger than itself, by itself. 
 
This is not to say that the Wolf doesn't have ANY chance, anything can happen, but just how much of a chance does the Wolf really have? 
 
I'm just interested as to what reasons people have for picking the Wolf.

I have some good reasons for picking the wolf. 
 
"Another myth is that packs are required to bring down large prey; several observers have seen single wolves catch and kill elk and moose. The first wolf to return to Sweden after the extermination of its wolf population regularly brought down large moose by itself." 
 
"Another common misconception about wolves hunting, is that only large wolf packs can kill large animals. This is also untrue . . . a single wolf having been seen to kill a moose, eleven times, by itself with no pack to help it." 
 
http://ezinearticles.com/?Wolf-Packs---Incredible-Misconceptions-About-Their-Hunting&id=3110217 
 
http://www.wolfcountry.net/information/WolfHunting.html

There have actually been several males taken over 300 lbs, it's no myth, even if it's not common. Fact is, once you get to the northern and southern extremes of the cats range, the larger they are and the more often adult males exceed the "average" size. What may or may not be mythical is the dozens of accounts from Indians, hunters, and frontiersmen who claim that when bear and cougar square off, cougar usually wins or they draw. Now I dont think all these folks biasly called themselves panther d, but by the same token i dont know what hard evidence there is to support their claims. Just seems odd that all these folks from all these different places, cultures, and times all have the same story. The playing field is way more even with a bear than it is with a lone wolf. He may be vicious. He may be powerful. But he's got one weapon: a mighty set of jaws. So does the big cat. But the cat also has 4 sets of big, razor sharp daggers flashing with lightning speed and precision. Thats like Tyson and Ali stepping into the ring in their prime, but Tyson has one arm cut off and Ali has two extra arms. It's not a match.

If it was not a match then why the debate. Yes the cougar has 5 points of attack we all are aware of that. But I equate that to having 5 six shooter pistols, on the other hand the wolf has a howitzer. They can cut through bone like butter to eat the marrow of its prey, cougars can't so they leave the bones to waste. You may have Native American folklore or stories of 300 lb plus coubar roaming around, but you have yet to demonstrate hard evidence. You claim of cougars always defeating or drawing with brown bears but every single video I have seen the cougar gets his ass handed to him by the grizzly bear. The cougar does not even try to attack for the most part. Here is a little true story, my grandfather and I were hunting coyotes some where in northern montana. We observed a male cougar attacking a wolfs den in most likely to kill and eat its cubs. Shortley there after a majestic male wolf came in defense of the wolfs lair and bit the cougar in the hind quarters breaking its leg right in half the cougar attempted to run but was so severly injured that it went into shock. Needless to say it was consumed by the wolf along with its mate and cubs. Thats how powerful their bites are. I have also read in the yellowstone journal that wolves have been observed raiding cougar dens killing not only cougar cubs but the mother it self. Now having said all that I am not saying that the wolf is absolute over the cougar, in fact I think it could go either way. I am just not willing to accept the notion that the wolf does not stand a chance. But I do firmly believe that neither one stand a chance one on one with a grizzly, but wolves stand a chance in packs. Does this answer your question Jcol? By the way panther d south of the equater the cougar is much much smaller, its towards the north whre it grows much larger. Plus south of the equater they face the Jaguar, and no they dont stand a chance against the third largest cat in the world.

Well, nimrod, as has been alluded to here on this site, anything can happen. I have to say that, although the Wolf's bite is very powerfull indeed, I don't think it's as powerful as you make it out to be. The Cougar's bite is powerfull in it's own right. What the Cougar has that the Wolf doesn't, is the ability to use his four claws as weopons. Taken in junction with his superior strength, the big Cat is able to hold (and injure in the process), and control his advasary, while biting at the same time. 
 
If the Wolf doesn't get in at least a crippling bite from the get-go, the odds are against it. 
 
BUT, anything CAN happen. 
 

Here is a little article to help support the claim of the wolves superior bite strength. The Cougar's bite strength does'nt even come close to that of a wolf. Cougar bite strength comes in at 400 lbs per sq inch, very strong indeed, but not as strong as the wolf's. Not to mention that wolves have 2 layers of fur that measures 2.5 inches thick during the winter. Sorry but the cougars claws are almost worthless against the wolf's thick fur. Unless the wolf rolls over and exposes its belly. I once saw a video of 2 male wolves attack a single male cougar and scare it off its fresh kill. And no it wasnt 2 wolves against one, because the other wolf was fighting off the cougar while the other started eating the kill. I counted the punches or swipes the cougar attempted to land and it made 0 contact, showing the wolf's elusivness to evade attack. Now the cougar was not killed but it shows that at times wolves can be superior. I have read peoples claims in this forum that cougars are much faster then wolves and that is false, they both run at top speeds of 35-40 mph, but with the wolf's increbile stamina it can sustain its top speed longer then the puma. They can also swim and chase prey into rivers and streams, something most cats dont do. With the exceptions of Jaguars and Tigers.  
 
 
 
Here is the source of the following article. 
 
 
 
http://www.wolfcountry.net/information/WolfObserved.html 
 
 
 
 
 
Most of the adult grey wolves weigh in the vicinity of 75 to 125 pounds (34 to 56 kilograms). Males are usually larger than females by as much as twenty-five percent. There are authenticated records of male wolves weighing as much as 175 pounds (79 kilograms). 
 
 
 
As large as wolves are, they usually appear to much larger because of their long hair. In the winter coat, the hair on their back and sides averages 2 to 2.5 inches (5 to 6.3 centimeters) in length. Starting at the base of the neck, the wolf has a teardrop-shaped mane of hair that elongates into just a crest down the spine toward the tail. Over the shoulder, the mane is about 6 inches (15.2 centimeters) wide. The hairs in the mane are 4 to 5 inches (10 to 12.7 centimeters) long and are attached to erectorpilli muscles, which allow the hairs to stand on end, making the wolf appear even larger. 
 
 
 
 
 
Extensive studies of the North American wolf species show between 50 to 70 inches (1.3 to 1.8 metres) in total nose-tip-to-tail-tip length. Of that length, one quarter is tail length. 
 
 
 
Wolves Stand between 27 to 31 inches (68 to 78 centimeters) high at the shoulder. Compared to dogs of the same size, wolves' chests are much narrower. Their legs are also longer in proportion to their body weight than are most dogs. Because of its narrower chest, the wolf's left and right foot tracks closer together than the dogs. 
 
 
 
 
 
Teeth 
 
back to top 
 
 
 
The wolf has very strong jaws. According to Barry Lopez in Of Wolves and Men, the jaws of a wolf have a "crushing pressure of perhaps 1,500 (lbs/square inch) compared to 740 (lbs/square inch) for a German Shepherd." The dentition of the wolf consists of twenty-two teeth: twelve incisors, four canines, sixteen pre molars, and ten carnassials and molars. The canines of the wolf are 1-inch (2.54 centimeters) long, strong, sharp, and slightly curved. These are the teeth used for grasping prey. The wolf does not chew its food, using its carnassials to scissor off a piece of meat that can then be swallowed in a manageable chunk. Having strong jaws allows the wolf to crush bones to get to the soft marrow, it also helps the wolf eat most of its prey leaving very little waste 
 
 
 
Speed 
 
back to top 
 
 
 
Wolves walk, trot, lope, or gallop. Their legs are long, and they walk at about 4 miles (6.4 kilometers) per hour, but can reach speeds of 35 mph during a chase. Their usual mode of travel is to trot, which they do at various speeds, generally between 8 to 10 miles (12.8 to 16 kilometers) per hour. 
 
 
 
Wolves do not run at full speed until they get close to their prey as possible. At that point, they make a high-speed chase to test the animal. 
 
 
 
Wolves can keep up this pace for hours on end and have been known to cover 60 miles (96 kilometers) in a single night. They have been clocked at speeds of over 40 miles (64 kilometers) per hour for a distance of several miles. 
 
 
 
 
 
Swimming 
 
back to top 
 
 
 
 
 
The wolf is very comfortable in the water, and does not hesitate to wade through icy streams or swim across short stretches of lake. In summer, wolves often bathe in streams to keep cool, and they will readily follow prey into water. 
 
 
 

ARR, you're saying that the Cougar's claws would be useless in a fight against the wolf? 
 
Hmmm. Would you, by chance, know how thick the pelt is on a moose or elk or deer is, during the winter? I'm asking because,1; I don't know, and 2; however thick it may be, and it must be fairly thick, it doesn't seem to help it much against the Cougar's attack. I think those claws will inflict some serious damage to the Wolf. 
 
And to be clear, it's not how "fast" the Cougar is, so much as it is it's "quickness". 
 
The term, "cat-like reflexes" is definitive in and of itself. That quickness, combined with the Cougar's amazing agility, his superior strength and weaponry (is that a word?), is just too much for the Wolf to overcome. 
 
BUT, anything can happen.

Notice that I said ALMOST WORTHLESS, as in terms of inflicting serious injury. Sure it can still use them for grasping, maneuvering, and latching, but not killing. The cougar does not kill with its claws, it uses its claws to latch on the prey, holding on and using its jaws to bite the neck thus suffocating its prey to death. The damage caused by its claws are not as much as you think, we aren't discussing tiger or grizzly bear claws, witch are known to crush skulls like pumpkins. I have seen large puma claws up close, and they measured 1.5 inches in length pretty long indeed but not long enough to pierce and penetrate completely through 2 layers of 2.5 inch thick mane. Nobody disputes the effectiveness of lions mane, so why do you Jcol undermine the potential effectiveness of the wolf's. Defense is just as important as offense don't you think? Its like covering your body with 3 thick blankets and using a sharpened hand held garden rake to inflict damage. Not as potent as it being on bare flesh.

I'm sure the wolf's pelt does offer some protection, I just don't think it offers as much as you think it does. You're not taking into account the force used by the Cat when striking and raking. I think those claws will cause more than a little pain, moreso in places where the fur is not as thick. Remember, we're talking up to four claws, in four seperate areas of the Wolf's body. 
 
The Lion's mane is much thicker, and yet still, other male Lions are able to inflict mortal injuries when they fight to take over a pride, or defend territory.

Point well taken, but if the cougar is using all 4 claws that means if was sucessful in taking down the wolf game over. Because it has it on the ground. But during a potential fight its 2 claws and jaws. Keep in mind the video I saw the wolf was able to dodge all the cougars claw attacks, so in my opinion the wolfs fur defense and quickness to avoid the cougars claw swiping helps its odds. It can then use a caculated attempt to clamp on any given point of the cougar. And if it does it should be able to injure the cougar sufficiently, allowing it to go for the final killing blow.

IF the Wolf can bite down on a vital spot, it may indeed be curtains for the Cat, but remember; 
 
the Cat, on average, is at least 25lbs heavier, and much quicker. In any given fight,I don't see the Wolf dodging all of the Cougars attacks, especially since the Wolf has to lead with his head. If the Cougar connects with the Wolf's sensitive nose, that could end the fight pretty quick. But the Cat can't spend too much time clawing away at the heavy fur of the Wolf. 
 
Just as the Wolf must quickly find a vital place to attack, so must the Cat. 
 
My opinion is the Cat has a better chance of doing it first. 
 
But then, just as a single wolf should never even think of going one-on-one with a Cougar, the Cougar would most likely avoid a confrontation if it could. 
 
The Wolf might survive a serious injury with aid from his pack, the Cougar would most likely die, if it was too injured to hunt effectively. 
 
Although, an injured alpha male Wolf, is himself vulnerable to forces within his own pack. 
 
Ok, you've convinced me that the Wolf has a better chance than I had first thought. 
 
I'll go 70-30, Cougar.

Nimrod, i'm aware that the tropical pumas are the smallest variety, it's at the southern extremes where they are larger than average, as well as the northern extremes. Your story sounds a lot like the ones I've read, but of course you're completely credible and no one else is, right? My question is why have there been so many people, who stand to gain nothing by it, conspire to make the cat superior if it's not? I dont know how many different references I've seen where eye-witness accounts(like yours)from naturalists and tribal Indians have the puma whipping the jaguar. Trust me, i'd prefer to be able to see that myself, but still why make this stuff up?

So it whips the the grizzly bear, now the jaguar, what else panther d? Have you heard of tribal bushmen in the savannah of Africa saying that pumas escaped from their local zoos only to whip the lion and the nile croc and the spotted hyena? Although I do think it could take on a leopard, since they are evenly matched. I never doubted the pumas capability of whipping the wolf, I just don't agree that it whoops it all the time every time night in and night out. I certainly don't believe it could whoop a grizzly bear. Did you know that one swipe of the grizzly bears paws can kill the puma on impact? The jaguar please, the jaguar outweighs the little pumas of the amazon by at least 150 lbs. Jaguars average over 300lbs. The puma in the amazon averages 130lbs. There isn't any animal in the amazon that rivals the jaguar other then maybe the anaconda and cayman crocs, but on land nothing else. Please quit embarrassing your self, I love pumas as much as you do, I think they are bad ass, but there is always a bigger and better bad ass out there.

I also want to mention that the Jaguar might indeed be the only predator that is both apex and keystone.

I'm not embarrassed at all Nimrod, I'm sharing what I've found. I'm not the one who claims to have seen these things ya know. I know that one swipe of a grizzly's paw to a bison's head will kill it, so yes I'd say that would be true in a cougar's case too. You seem to think I'm throwing this stuff out there as ignorant opinion. My opinion was the same as yours, that the grizzly and the jaguar, the black bear and even the wolverine(since they'll take the cat's kill) all lorded it over the cougar, but my opinion changed when I couldnt find anything to say that was the case, all I could find was the contrary. It seems reasonable to me that if there are dozens and dozens of the same story being told by all sorts of different people, there has to be some validity to it. I could be wrong. But I'm just reporting it, you'll have to take issue with the ones who make the claims!

Hey panther d, are your sources legitimate? Do you have any links to substantiate these claims? Can you provide factual evidence? Or are your sources just anonymous? Just curious.

ARR, I doubt if he even believes these claims. I smell spite.

panther d are you kidding me? You cant be serious. Cougar beating up on Jaguars and Grizzlies. Come one kid, quit yanking my chain.

"Bears of the world", "Swamp Screamer", "The Naturalist in La Plata","Standard Natural History", "California Grizzly" "The New International Encyclopedia" "Big Game Fields of America" "Burton's Gentlemen's Magazine"....guys, I just read it. Draw your own conclusions about it.

Wow, this is epic where common sense meets retards. 
 
 
 
Obviously, shown in the movie, cougar wins, end of that.  
 
 
 
And if it happens again a couple of times, yeah, maybe a wolf will get away from harm.  
 
 
 
Smart answer: Cougar wins for more weapons, heavier, and fast acting. 
 
 
 
Retarded answer: Wolves win cause they can crush a car door or a Ford F-150 with a bite!! They can be big like the wolves on New Mo0n! Dur Hur!!

So you take that one retarded answer and run away with it like it was the only relevant response on this forum. While completely disregarding every other valid point made in favour for the wolf. Hmmm?

...."Life Among the Apaches", "Puma, Legendary Lion of America", "The Great Bear Almanac" are good reads too....

you also have to take into account wolves hunt in packs it is very rare to find a lone wolf far from the pack. if the wolf felt threatend it would signal for the pack and the cougar would be fucked. a cougar would not be able to get out of a wolves lock jaw either although they are smaller the are brilliant fighters

Wolfey, the ONLY thing you have to take into account is the simple question of who wins in a fight between the two animals. 
 
It's just that simple. 
 
I don't understand why some of you people want to make this into anything other than what it is; 
 
 
 
Wolf Vs. Cougar 
 
Put the two of them in the ring and let them duke it out, one-on-one. 
 
We are NOT talking about what might happen if these two were to meet in the natural confines of nature, there are no varibles to add in this little exercise. No packs coming to the aid of the Wolf. 
 
It is simply, again, one Wolf vs. one Cougar. 
 
Place your bet.

Umm wolfy...they CAN get out of their bit. What, you think they just freeze up and lose their ability to use their claws or strength? and wolves aren't the only ones smart. Every animal have their own tactics and wits.  
 
 
 
Plus, I think a lot of wolves will have their ass handed to them before taking down a cougar.

actually, ARR presented some very valid points about the variables that could come into play within this particular situation. 
If the gray wolf has a thick winter coat, then it could possibly be used as a barrier against the cougars claws, and if that was case, then the fight would be broken down to a battle against their jaws. 
The wolf's bite strength is far superior compared to that of the mountain lion, but it would all depend on how the fight turned out, and where it takes place. 
We must not forget that the environment is also a very important variable. 
If the fight took place in a snowy, Northern environment, the wolf would have the upper hand, but if the fight took place down South, the mountain lion would have the advantage. Snowy environment=thicker fur for the wolf; thick enough to insulate the wolf from extremely cold temperatures, as they generally spend more time traveling extensively long distances on their feet than cougars do. 
it's also been documented that single wolf's have been known to kill adult mountain lions, albeit rarely, but it has occurred before. 
plus, the video that was posted above looks as if it was filmed during the springtime, which would mean an obvious disadvantage to the wolf.  
 
"It is rare for a wolf to kill a mature cougar, but it has happened and wolves occasionally kill cougar cubs. Overall, wolf-cougar interactions are rarely observed because of the rarity of the two species, but the two generally share an animosity towards each other, since they both prey on large game." 
 
I could see the Mackenzie Valley Wolf being a worthy adversary against the mountain lion. As they are the largest subspecies of Gray Wolf known to man, and according to Wikipedia, their bite force is strong enough to "break the bones of prey and even crack the femur of moose."  
"Its powerful neck is a very important adaptation: it has to be strong to support the wolf's large head and is crucial for bringing down prey." I think it's safe to say that the Mackenzie Valley Wolf could give the cougar a run for its money. But I'm not willing to say that it's definite.  
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackenzie_Valley_Wolf 
 
http://www.freewebs.com/alphawolfsabrina/wolfecology.htm

ronald, as we all know by now, Elk is one the food sources for both the Cougar and the Wolf. During the winter months, the Elk has two layers of fur, along with a heavy mane that covers the neck area. The Cougar, a solitary hunter, has no problem delivering a killing bite on the Elk, even with all that "protective" fur. The two coats on the Elk, as well as on the Wolf, are not designed to "protect" these animals from the attack of a predator, but rather to help ward off the chill of the winter season. The same holds true for Mule Deer and Moose, both of which are hunted by both predators. 
 
Think about this for just a minute. 
 
Not only does the cat deliver a killing bite, it also has the strength to hold down an animal that usually out-weighs it by at least 2 to 1, and sometimes more. 
 
Let's get off this "protective fur" defense system for the Wolf, because while it may offer a modicum of SOME protection, it will NOT be enough to stop the Cougar.

you're right about the Elk having two layers of fur, man, but remember, Elk aren't equipped with lethal, bone-crunching canines that can exert over a 1000lbs. worth of pressure on whatever it happens to bite. We're talking about a reasonably large canine that can bite through bone here. 
of course the cougar isn't going to have a problem taking down an Elk because they're not predators; cougars have evolved to take down large ungulates much bigger than themselves, and wolves have, too. if a full grown, alpha male, Mackenzie-Valley Wolf locks its jaws on to the neck of the cougar, it could very easily snap its vertebrae, that coupled with the thick pelt could offer at least a marginal degree of protection against its claws. The claws could definitely do some damage, but ultimately it's the bite that will determine which animal will win. 
And although fairly uncommon, the Gray wolf has also been known to take down prey MUCH larger than itself by itself, without the help of the pack. I'm not saying it's definite, but based on the sheer bite force of the wolf alone, I think that it could possibly win. 
but the probability of the wolf winning is somewhat slim at best considering the overall strength of the cougar, but it's not out of the question, either. It all depends on how fast the wolf is. 
 

No the Elk doesn't have teeth with which to defend itself, but it does have size, weight and sometimes, a rather impressive set of antlers, or as we like to call them where I'm from; "clown-stabbers". 
 
The point I'm trying to make is that the Cougar is just one big coiled spring of muscle with jaws and claws. And the Wolf can't out-quick the Cat. Plus, if it comes to a short sprint, the cat is just as fast, if not faster, than the Wolf. Granted, it'd be a pretty short sprint, but still, the cat's speed is impressive for 40-50 yards. 
 
This is not to say the Wolf stands no chance against the Cougar, but the odds are against it. 
 
Gotta go now, but I'll talk later about the Wolf taking down large prey.

Lets also not go overboard with how inferior the cougar's bite is in comparison. At a 1000 psi, the wolf's bite strength is undeniable, but the cats are known to bite through the skulls of horses and cattles. Their bite force is 600 to 900 psi, depending on the size of the cat, which is not exactly weak. And I'd love to know where the documentation is that a lone wolf kills a HEALTHY adult puma.

By the way people talk about wolves it is like they don't know anything about them. First off, wolves have an extremely tough hide. Second Wolves are very quick and agile. they can do backflips and jump over six feet off the ground they have shorter legs than a cougar and their back legs are weaker than a cougars but their front legs are much stronger, strong enough to break a mule deers backin one blow. A mule deer has bones about as strong as a cougar so a wolf would go for the back bone. Wolves have a bite force of up to 1500 psi but it is usually in the 1000- 1200 range for lower 48 wolves. Wolves in the lower 48 are generally pack animals about as big as in the description for the fight. But large wolves in areas like alberta and alaska grow well over 200 pounds. In fact there was a 235 pound wolf shot a while ago that is all over the web. This wolf and most canadian and alaskan wolves are loners.The hunters say that this wolf attacked a scared away a big male black bear they were hunting.sometime find a dog like a mastiff and feel it's arm. It will be solid with muscle a wolfs arm is like this but even bigger and stronger. Cougars dish out a painful bite force as well of anywhere from small ones at 400psi to monsters at around 800psi. Either animal will destroy you obviously. couagars have huge rear legs witch allow them to jump 16 feet STRAIGHT UP and 30 feet forward. So the cougar has astonishing rear leg strength but the wolf has astoninshing front leg strength. Oh, and just to give an example of the canid families strenght i have a 130 pound dog and my 60 pound dog was running at him so he ran at the 60 pound dog gave him a swipe of his paw and sent a 60 pound animal flying joe he landed and didn't move for a while but he just had the wind knocked out of him. This hit was not even meant to kill just to stop. 
 
Now to how the fight would probably go. 
 
The mountain lion and wolf would sense each other and the wolf would just continue moving along and see what happens.The mountain lion would stalk the wolf and wait for the ideal moment and leap from a rock. The wolf would sense it just in time to dodge it and swat it down. but the cougar will dance around the wolf and try to go for the back.A wolf is very smart and will let the cougar come up near it and them lash out an instant before the cougar with either huge jaws or powerful claws. on a lower 48 wolf the mountain lion would likely win because the wolf is used to fighting with atleast one other wolf to cover its back. On the northern senario they would probably both be adult males. The cougar would attack the same way. The wolf would let it circle only a little and then the fight could go two ways the cougar could decide to leave because it thinks the fight will end in a lose for it and then turn and run so the wolf wouldn't get it but the wolf would run at its full speed of 40 mph which is slightly faster than the cougars of 35 mph. and completely suprise it by simply running it over, wolfs and cougars are both solid muscle and a wolves chest is like a piece of iron and this would knock out the big cat setting it up to be killed. But if the cat jumps into a tree first first it will get away. But if the cougar stayed to fight it would put many scares on the wolf with viscious kick and claws. Then the wolf would learn more strategy and right when the cougar charges run straight at it and swipe both claws into it crushing ribs the sernum or the neck.

correstion: It would put many SCARS on the wolf.

Correction again: sternum, not sernum

I hardly know where to begin..... 
 
Kenny, could you please tell me where in the blue hell did you get the idea that a Wolf's fore-legs are strong enough to break a mule deer's back? Seriously? I mean really dude, that's just the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. 
 
I'm really trying to show some restraint here, so I'll stop now and let you explain this notion that about the Wolf's fore-legs being stronger than a Cougar's, and able to break the back of a mule deer. I'm trying to draw a mental picture as to just how the wolf go about doing this. 
 
(not to mention swatting a Cougar out of the air. You do understand that we're talking about Wolves, NOT Werewolves. Because Werewolves don't exist Kenny, ok? ) 
 
So go ahead, tell me how the Wolf does this. 
 
I can't wait to hear this.

lol! I'm just happy to learn of this phenomenom of wolves over 200lbs fighting by swatting with their forepaws....which are, of course, more powerful than the cougar's too. And they're black belts as well, what with being able to do all those back flips during the scuffle. Yes, if all else fails the 200 plus pound canine would surely pull out their cell phones and send out for some type of ACME fighting product to help while strategizing during the brawl, but you better warn 'em Ken!--that stuff never works for Wile E! But then again, he's JUST a coyote. He doesnt possess the mystical powers of the Canadian and Alaskan Wolves, does he?

Just for the record Kenny: The cat's top speed is in the 45 to 50 mph range. I know you read 35, but you're on the internet RIGHT NOW. Dig deeper.

Yeah, I'm afraid the only "back-flip" the wolf is gonna do is when the Cougar "Swats" him. 
 
And Kenny, Cats actually DO use the "swat" as a fighting technique. 
 
Seriously man, I'm not trying to dog you, no pun intended, canines do not "swat" or use "back-flips" while fighting. 
 
Take a look at the size of the fore-legs of both animals, think about how the Cougar uses his as opposed to the Wolf, and tell me how you think the Wolf's fore-legs are more powerfull.

I think Kenny is too into New Moon...

i have an actual fact about the grey wolf the truth is the wolfs forelegs are actually stronger because the wolf spends most off its life travelling and running well more than the cougar does. but the wolf definately doesnt backflip or slash mainly because its claws arent ment to be a defensive weapon its main tactic is in a pack the pack bites the cougar/animal's limbs with their powerful jaws and one delievers the fatal neck break manouever while the animal is down and injured.

but its hard to say who would win strange things happen in nature some things just turn out unexpected hell a little fuckin alvin and the chipmunks could enter the fight and fuck both the cougar and the wolf up.

You have an actual fact, huh? 
 
Where did you get this "actual" fact? 
 
The male Cougar has a huge territory that he patrols. His fore-legs are used not only to help bring down and hold prey sometimes as much as 5x it's own weight, but also to climb trees. 
 
 
 
The Wolf prefers to hunt on the flat-lands and clearings where it can utilize it's speed. The Cougar can and will hunt in and around all kinds of terrain, including mountains. 
 
Check out how thick the fore-legs are on the Cougar. They are much thicker, much more heavily muscled than the Wolf's. But hey, go ahead and post this "actual" fact of yours. 
 
Maybe I'm wrong.

wow. What we have is a lot of wolf people who really dont know much at all about the cat. So much of the info on them is extremely generalized because there's not a lot of extensive studying on them, which is why one has to look further. The cougar's home range can be up to 300 square miles, 50 of which the cats might travel in one night. They can kill with one blow to the head. They've been observed to routinely bring down prey SEVEN times their own weight. I wouldnt doubt that an alpha wolf, 170-180lbs and battle-tested, could take on a grown cougar if the cat's a transient--a couple of years old and still searching to establish his own territory. Cougars in this stage in life have a high mortality rate because in their roaming they find themselves in fully mature, established male cougar territories sometimes and the mature cat kills the transient. Against the fully mature, established cougar, I give the lone wolf no chance. I mean, the lone wolf doesnt fare well against the flock guardian breeds, great pyrenees, anatolian shepherd, akbash, kangol....these big mastiff/shepherd breeds earn their living as wolf slayers. If these domestic dogs can handle Big Bad(and they always do) then it's no problem for the big cats to take care of him.

there is a lot of cross breed favouritism going on here your ever a cat person or a dog person and most of these are opinions not fact they are complete fanboy bullshit. this is the wild we are talking about and the truth is no one no's what really would happen not what might happen or might not. the wild is a open place where many animals have there own characteristics not inherited by breed. fuck people stop making generalisatons about the cat being stronger and faster or the wolf being bigger and more powerful. 
 
because im not sure any of you would spend years on your ass observing cougar vs wolf fights. 
 

The only question I have, Wise Yoda, is why do you consider yourself "wise"? 
 
Because from reading your post, it's clear that you're most definitively NOT wise, but actually closer to "imbecile" status. 
 
 
 
"This is the wild we're talking about...." 
 
 
 
And what was your first clue, inspector? 
 
What is so hard about this? 
 
Why are some of you so confused about this exercise? 
 
Yoda, o wise Yoda, use the FORCE you idiot!!! 
 
Throw away all the varables. 
 
All the IFs, Ands, and Buts, and try to FOCUS on just the Cat and the Wolf. Throw away all that "fanboy" crap and take it for what it is; a one-on-one, winner take all, fight to the finish. 
 
Make a choice, and quit trying to convince everyone you're smarter than you actually are. 
 
'Cause it's not working.

lmao i just used the force... you know why? because you just completely agreed with me in your own way. that was my point to throw away the fanboy crap and eliminate the ifs ands and buts. 
 
wow looks like my jedi mind trick worked. 
 
lmao thanks for the agreeing with me

I think the force turned around and smacked you upside the head.... 
 
ok. I'll let you live in your own little world for now, but you still haven't made your choice. 
 
Give us your pick, then tell us why you think you're right. 
 
And don't give us any of this "nobody knows what will happen" shit. 
 
Get in the game and show some balls. 
 
Otherwise, what good are you?

grow some balls??? my balls have grown dont think yours have. 
 
and im giving you that nobody knows what will happen shit cause nobody does fucking know!!. 
 
for fucks sake dude i dont take sides im not placing bets natures nature wilds the wild fuck its not up to us humans to state what might happen or what might not because we dont fucking know!!!! 
 

Well what the fuck are ya doin' here? 
 
Giving us the benefit of your fuckin' wisdom? 
 
FUCK THAT! 
 
You come here, spouting all kinds of fucking useless platitudes, that EVERYONE and thier fuckin' brother, or whatever the fuck else relative you want to name, ALREADY KNOWS. 
 
If I know one thing, it's this; 
 
I can out-fuck you, kid. 
 
So let's act like adults and again, I ask you;  
 
can you make a choice?  
 
That's what everyone else has done. 
 
I can only see 3 reasons why you can't do it; 
 
1, you don't have a clue as to how the fight might end, in which case I would suggest you go educate yourself on the two combatants. 
 
2, you HAVE made a choice, you're just too much of a coward to reveal what it is. Gosh o wise Yoda, nobody is gonna laugh at you over your choice. Well, at least not too much. 
 
3, you're too stupid to understand what this premise is all about. 
 
Until you can convince me otherwise, I'm going with #3. 
 

lol i just fully pissed you off. 
 
and u cant outfuck the yoda. 
 
u got jedi served

Give it up Yoda. 
 
The only force in you, is me. 
 
Now I know what those big ears are for. 
 
Since you got nothin' else, I'll send you on your way. 
 
I will say that I'm a bit dissapointed though. I thought you had more game than this. 
 
I guess they just don't make Yodas' like they used to. 
 
maybe if you dyed yourself blue, you can find work as a smurf, or something.

No one 'no's', huh wise yoda? It's 'KNOWS' genius. Researchers KNOW from their observations that when facing a pack the cat better get away or he's dead and that when facing an individual, the wolf is dead. Thats the official word, it doesnt matter who's a cat fanatic or who's a dog lover.

lmao the only force in you is me??? fail!!! 
 
and ive worked as a smurf love the day job not the night job. 
 
and no they dont make Yodas like they used to but they still make dipshits like you the same. 
 
soz Jcol but you just sucked Yodas great bit green dick. 
 
this is the last im posting so Yoda says a big fuck you and goodbye.

And so the great and powerfull "Wise" Yoda turns tail, and runs away as fast as his little legs can carry him, showing his true colors; 
 
the streak of yellow down his back, and his red ass, where he just got kicked. 
 
You're a disgrace to yodas' everywhere, kid. 
 
 
 
Go ahead, RUN, you coward. And don't show your face around here again.

lmfao 
 
oh your a fun person to play with.

 
 
You said that was your last post! 
 
You lied to me? 
 
Has the "wise" Yoda gone over to the dark side????? 
 
Say it ain't so, Yoda!!!! 
 
 
 
 
 
Ok, look kid. Let's stop hurling insults at each other, it proves nothing. Yeah it's fun, but I'm too old to play internet tough guy. 
 
I ask you again, for the last time, get off the fence and give us an answer; Wolf or Cougar, who wins? 
 
C'mon, Yoda. Be brave, Be bold. 
 

you dont no the power of the darkside of the force luke!!!! 
 

No contest. The wolf is a pack hunter. The puma is a loner. One-on-one, in a face-off, big cat eats smaller dog.  
 
The puma has several advantages. Strong arms and sharp claws. More weight, more strength, and more speed. The big cat is a cunning killer. 
 
The wolf is thinking, "where are all of my friends at when I need them"?

My friend showed this too me, and this is one gay arguement. Don't you rednecks have anything else....manly to do?  
 
 
 
But my own opinion, I find wolves like motorcycles. Fast, sleek, and can zip on by traffic if it's a smooth runway. 
 
 
 
Couger(or any other big cats) are like 4wd trucks/suvs. big, muscle, kicks ass. If you have head on impact with the two...who will live and who will die?  
 
 
 
Anyone who says motorcycle, you're a faggot and I hope to see you on the road so I can run you over...

Motorcycles and 4WD trucks? 
 
Hmmmmm...who is the redneck?

JD man, you sound like an ignorant, backwoods hick.

~Thank you Jen~

I kinda like how jdman explained it.  
 
 
 
But he needs to go back to /o/

Whats up with all the ignorant statements as of late, I'm gone for a couple of weeks and come back to read this garbage. Listen guys the cougar has the upper hand, I'm sure we all can agree. Size, agility, claws, blah blah blah. There is a saying that every dog has its day. All it takes is one bite to any part of the cougar by the wolfs 1,000 lbs of psi jaws and the cougar is history. So Jcol if I was a betting man my money would go to the cougar, but I wouldn't be surprised if the wolf pulled out the upset. Jcol FYI a guy I knew tried to sneak in his girlfriends house and their 90lb rottweiler came running at him at full force hitting him in his chest, needless to say the kid ended up with two broken ribs. Imagine what a 160 lb wolf could do in the same scenario. I'm not saying that the wolf uses that as a primary attack because they are obviously not trained guard dogs, but who knows.

ARR, what is it about the Cougar that makes you think it will give up as soon as the Wolf gets ONE bite in? 
 
Do you think the Cougar will just instantly die?  
 
BTW, what relevance does a 90lb dog throwing a body-block at a guy have in this conversation? 
 
Do you think the Cat is just gonna stand there and let the Wolf roll right over him? Why is it that you think the Wolf is gonna have the intelligence of Einstein, and the Cougar will act like Jethro Bodean? 
 
A mother Cougar will try to drive away a threat to her cubs, but male Cougars have one instinct; KILL. My opinion is that the Wolf is not quick enough to get in that "killing" bite on a healthy, full-grown Cougar. The Wolf is not strong enough to escape once the Cougar gets him down. 
 
Think about how strong the Cougar is. The Wolf simply CANNOT match it in strength, or quickness. It cannot match the Cat in weoponry. 
 
Yeah, anything can happen, but the truth of the matter is that the odds are against the Wolf, and taking the Wolf in this fight is a sucker's bet. It's one thing to be loyal or sentimental over the Dog, but let's not get crazy stupid about it. 
 
To those who take the Wolf, THIS is how Las Vegas was built.

Face-off, one on one, mountain lion vs timber wolf... The cougar wins every time. Not sometimes! Every time.

the wolf can't and will never kill a large cougar even if the cougar is old or sick or young.

I love wolves: Timber wolves, arctic wolves. Beautiful and with an undefinable power that makes me want to be friends with one -- or be one. That being said, if I'm being objective with my basic knowledge of wildlife, the mountain lion would kick the living shit out of a wolf. Sorry.

Cougar is a lone hunter,so it has a stronger bite,strength,speed and agility on it's side but the Wolf,being a team player,has jaws that are not designed for instant killing but to hold on tight.Also,the Cougar has claws and longer teeth than the Wolf, which decides the outcome.Cougar wins the fight 7/10 times.

O.O 
 
 
 
Both animals live in the same range, and yes, fights do occur. 
 
 
 
But neither animal is stupid. 
 
 
 
A fight avoided means no injuries, and an injured predator is in big trouble because it won't be able to hunt. No hunting = no food = starvation = DIE. 
 
 
 
Wolves often chase prey down, but would not investigate a cougar if it seemed assertive, bold and curious/aggresive. Which it would. 
 
 
 
Cougars wouldn't be so thick as to try and hunt a wolf. Fight outcomes rely on terrain as much as intelligence, weight, size (small isn't always a bad thing), agility, stamina, fur thickness, health, motive, determination, age and skill. The outcome of a fight like this is undeterminable, and the winner will almost always die of injuries in the aftermath.

THE OUTCOME OF THIS FIGHT IS COUGAR KILLS WOLF. SORRY but THAT IS FACTUAL!

hmm. my opinion is, cougar. although i love dogs !  
 
i mean, both of these animals are fur friggin rocious.  
 
cougars are amazingly fast and obviously strong. they also have amazing reflexes. they are also much larger and heavier than wolves. 
 
wolves have a great amount of bravery, which can scare its opponent off. a gray wolf wouldnt go after a cougar for no reason, its too smart. they evaluate a situation and deal.  
 
but if its an alpha against a male cougar, cougars would sadly win.  
 
wolves usually make very obvious straight forward attacks. it could probably bite the cougar so badly that itd tear through meat and muscle. but the cougar will come back and bite the wolf someplace like the ass and pin it down and scratch and rip out its neck.  
 

the wolf is probably my favorite animal i know of! i dont know who would win though, im gonna go with wolf 
 
 
 
,smarter, stronger neck muscles, braver and more competitive. wolf =] 
 

One on One cougar wins, wolves are pack hunters/fighters. I want to see these fights on WAFC: 
 
cougar vs leopard 
 
Spotted hyena vs alpha male wolf

fights do happen and for the most part the cat will loose, as do brown bears. when was the last time you saw a lone wolf in the woods? the wolf is a pack hunter and a cat has no chance against a pack of wolves. one on one the cat as long as it has good health and not to young or old will win.

Um...as long as their healthy? You're somewhat retarded patrck. Watched on animal planets, Hyenas tried to get an easy meal of lion meat. Lions were weak, starving, and old. The lions still wooped them hyena's ass!! Soooo~!!! Cougars have the same advantage. They don't have to be healthy to win. The muscle and will to live is still useful.

cats are pond for pound better i mean if a cheetah tried it could wup a hyenas ass let alone a wolf and a snow leopard could wup a wolf ass to 
obviously leopards lions tigers jaguars kill wolfs no problem and a cougar is the winner bc 7 ferious cats own all

it would be a close fight. the wolf is my fav out of the two but the couger is able to take down prey 3x its size witch a wolf cannot at least alone he cant but the pack of the wolvs is able to kill alot but the couger would come out with a victory

@pavy a freakin cheetah cant kill a hyena haha why do you think they run away wen hyena comes up to them same goes for the leapord lol a hyena could crush both of them with its great bite force over a 1000 lbs why do you think hyena are the only comp with lion sure a lion could easily kill a hyena one on one but there have been cases wen a pack has killed and ate a lion last time i checked cheetah and leapord dont do that they run away wen they see a lion hyena are the only predators challange them wen they see a lion yes all the big cats could kill a wolf but def not the cheetah its to small for the wolf the wolfs bite is way stronger than a cheetah they only weaigh like 130 lbs wolfs weigh like 180-190 lbs easy kill for wolf i mean even a pitbull or rott culd kill a cheetah and for snow leapord lol u got to be kidding its so small a freakin bull dog culd kill it lol

@assy nigga ok get some facts straight even if leopard was getting attacked by a wolf it can easily climb a tree to avoid it n attack from there. then a cheetah has the speed to run away and sneak attack with its speed. n o btw the reason the leopard and cheetah tend to run away is bc they use all there energy into getting the kill they dont have alot left to fight y waste attacking and getting injured? cats r smart jackass jackals n hyenas as well as dogs such as wolves r not smart

@pavy well if they were so baddasss they would be certinto fight the lion or hyena your the one who said that a cheetah and leapord could kill a hyna if it could kill it it would defend its food not run away leaving the food there!! there fucking bitches they run away lion have no comp with them and yes they dont want to get injuerd but they fuckin leave the food they dont even try to defend it dumb fuck a hyeana could easily kill a leapord or cheetah and speed is nothing the cheetah use its speed to catch prey not to use in combat and it depends wat evorment there in if its in africa plains fightin the africa plains then it atill has no chance cheetahs dont fuckin use stealth in combat they only fuckin do it to catch prey and i didnt say a wolf couldkill a leapord i said a leapord could kill a wolf dumbfuck but a wolf still has a chance and what makes hyena s and all the k9 family dumb jus cuz you are a cat lover doesnt make them dumb!! haha dont get mad cuz you know im right!! go up to any animal expert in africa 100% of them would say a cheeetah or leapord does not stand a chance or a cheetah does not stand a chance agaist a wolf!! get ur facts straight dumb ass!!

idk why pepole are compain lion and hyenas to wolf and cougare i mean theres a difence between a 500 lb lion and 170 lb hyena cougers arent that much bigger than a wolf i know a couger could kill a wolf but there not much diferent cougers 200 lbs wolf 180 lbs

@assy nigga go fuck urself u dont no fuck about this not to sound racist but name 1 black guy on big cat diary

hahaha im not black and the only reason you told me to fuck myself is cuz u know im right!! theres alot of black guys on big cat diary like the masi tribe haha im right again!! dumb ass kid you prob dont even know what im talik about!! p.s i hate house cats there so lazy!! doogs are way better!! so u go fuck your self hahaha

the ignorance level took a turn for the worst here, damn. Pavy, since when are canines not smart??!! And what does being black have to do with whether or not a person knows about animals?!?

wolfs can too bite through cars! and i think that a big wolf could bite the dummy old cooger to death cos coogers are stoopid and haves really ugly fur. Also wolfs are really cool looking and furocious .  
I vote cooger...oh damn it, i mean wolfs..

wolf only defense is his bite on the other hand a cougar have bigger teeth and sharp claws which will tear the wolf apart and a cougar is more flexible then a wolf..cougar wins easily

1+2=3. CD comes after AB. Yellow + blue=green. Water is wet. A cougar can kill a single wolf.

This is no contest; A Cougar can easily kill a single wolf. 
 
Now leopard vs. Cougar would be intresting

The cougar would probably win on a one on one fight, but why are you people actually making a big deal about this? 
If you believe that the cougar will win, and you have reasons to back it up, awesome. 
 
End of story. 
 
Who cares if someone disagrees with you. 
 
I mean, seriously, there's no reason to get riled up because someone busted your balls on a comment blog. 
Unless you're old, senile, and have no life.

ok now you guys have the wolves wieght all wrong they can range from 150-200 pounds and a mountain lion is 200-280 pounds but that does not mean that the mountain lion. A grown male wolf has 1500 pounds of bite pressure and fight more ofen than the mountain lion so the if the wolf would get one bite on a mountain lion and use it 1500 pounds of bite pressure the mountain lion would be out for count

not trying to be nerd or anything but i know alot about woves and mountain i mean i know a little much but any ways the wea spots on a mountain lion are the base of it tail, paws, neck,stomach, and nose and if a wolf could bite on any of those places with its 1500 bite pressure the mountain lion would die and the mountain has alot more weak spots than a wolf does and if the wolf can find one the weak spotsmountainlionisthe wolf has alot lot lot more fighting experience than mountain

Guys your basing all of your facts on one video. If you actually go hunting for them, you will find videos of wolvs mauling cougars. im not saying the wolf is better, but some of you belive that the cougar is better because it can survive on its own and wolves cant. However the reason why wolves live in a pack is because they like it. things are easier. dont we all want to find the easier way in life. cougars live on there own because they all think of themselves as equals and dont want to pledge loyalty to other cats. with out a leader there is no way to have an organized group. You guys think that because the cougar is bigger means that it will win. But some times bull dogs can take on snt. berdards and win. size does not matter. think logically.

Well, from my standpoint, and I like to think it's a logical one, the Cougar is Bigger, stronger, faster, more agile and has more weapons. Given all of those advantages, I'm not sure the Wolf has ANY chance at all, although I guess anything can happen. 
 
If you found a Cougar mauled by a Wolf, I'd bet it was by more than one Wolf. Cougars don't travel in packs because they are solitary animals. They don't think of themselves as all equals, they just don't like the competition, and that's how they see each other, and other predators. 
 
The Cougar is just too much for the Wolf to handle.