Wild Animal Fights

How can you say the bear wins and then have a video of a lion winning? Are you special?

Well i seen a tiger kick the crap out of a black bear,i also seen videos of lions and tigers fighting.They are about an even fight,so i know the lion will win the fight.

mr. Flower. That is a very small black bear in the video. There is a very cruel video of a black bear fighting a lion in a cage match on youtube that I did not want to post on this site.

How could a bear swat a lion down! 
 
Lions are faster, have more practice in hunting and fighting, and lions are the same size as the bear!  
 
For the bear its the same size, but that's all. Black bears barely even hunt!!!

That wasn't a fair fight, they were both locked up in a fucking cage, they didn't have any room to run around and beat the shit out of each other in! My money's on the Lion.

Black bears are very elusive creatures, they are the cowards of the bear family, if a Black bear was to see a male lion ready to fight, he would try anything to get out of that situation! The Lion surely would win this one.

fuck me are you stupit why post saying a bear would win then show a video of a lion winning dhhhh 
 
 
 
and this is just a biest opion as you don;t seem to lyk lion you cock !! 
 
 
 

This fight could easily go either way, but I'll probably have to go with the Lion since black bears are known to shy away from a confrontation quite often, which everyone has already mentioned

You idiot, the lion is way larger on avg, and would dominate this fight with the jackass coward blackie.

people who says bear is the winner on that fight..he or she is so stupid...

LOL, Replace the cubby black bear with a beastly grizzly brown bear that's over two times the size of that black bear and the lion and then see how you like it. Those poor kids would've been lunch. 
 
 
 
 
 

Kevin, grizlies are no larger than lions....in one record, of a total of 65 adult males measured, they averaged 192 kg, about the same as a lion. a grizzly which is twice the size of a black bear would be an overlarge specimen.

uhhhhhh Damon you're wrong like always! 
 
 
 
Grizzly Bears on average are bigger than lions, you are living in denial! And you're a liar and you're very deceptive! 
 
 
 
Get off of this forum and go to hell!! 
 
 
 
Lions are weak, that's why they hunt in packs. 
 
 
 
To Tell you the truth, this isn't af fair fight, the lion will kill the black bear easily, but Dipshit Damon here decides to show up and piss everybody off! 
 
 
 
Lions are smaller and are more cowardly than grizzly bears! 
 
 
 
P.S: Damon got fucked by a lion and is now the lion's bitch.

Sorry for being ugly Damon. 
 
I guess in your own way, you're a pretty cool guy. 
 
 
 
But it is crazy to say that a lion and a grizzly bear are the same size (On average or on maximum proportions). 
 
 
 
The average weight of a grizzly (and many scientists say this) is around 650-700 lbs, there is nothing rare about that it is common. 
 
 
 
And lions (males) average 400-450 lbs, while lionesses average 250 lbs. 
 
 
 
And the guys that talk about the brown bears that can kill a lion with one blow, they're talking about bears that weigh more than 1000 lbs, trust me! A grizzly of 1000 pounds or more can defeat a lion easily, with no trouble at all!!

...kenny, no need for apologies. i myself don`t like to get into arguments. it`s just a discussion. but, to prove my point on grizzly bears; 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/averageweightsofgrizzlybears.jpg 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/effectsoffoodavailabilityofweightsg.jpg 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/weightofmaleandfemalegrizzlies.jpg 
 
...there you go. grizzlies of 650 - 700 lbs does happen, but, most usually, this is due to a greater proportion of food intake, not actual body size.  
 
even a grizzly of 1000 lbs would find it difficult to kill these most mighty of animals, the most combative of carnivora. here is one record where a lion defeated a polar bear of the same weight; 
 
Here is the text (I cut and pasted the text into a document but no longer have the original): 
 
A FIGHT TO A FINISH. 
 
Fierce Struggle between a Nubian 
 
Lion and a Polar Bear, In Which 
 
The Former Won. 
 
A furious right to a finish between a 
 
fierce Nubian Hon and a monster Polar 
 
bear took at -Mundy's An- 
 
.ritual Show, in. Jacksonville. Fla. The 
 
bear -was badly beaten. 'but everybody 
 
admitted. that he had made a 
 
splendid fight. "Both beasts were absolutely 
 
game all the way through. 
 
The lion carried on the fight under 
 
considerable difficulties, as toward the 
 
close the keepers were shooting him 
 
and jabbing him with redhot irons 
 
The bear owed his defeat to his weakness* 
 
in offensive tactics. In. strength, 
 
weight and endurance he was fully 
 
equal to his opponent. 
 
.The fight naturally divided itself 
 
Into rounds, ' although, of course, no 
 
time rule was observed. After a fierce 
 
bout the monsters would rest for a few 
 
moments and then go at It again. The 
 
fight lasted ten rounds. 
 
The Polar bear had angered the lion 
 
in some way. possibly by his color or 
 
his cold and reserved manner. The 
 
keepers were first aware of the. trouble 
 
when the lion smashed, the partition 
 
of iron bars that separated him from 
 
the bear. 
 
The lion is a magnificent beast, 6 
 
years old which Is the prime of life In 
 
his family. He has a very thick mane 
 
and a horrid roar. When- he roars he 
 
turns up his nose and his upper lip 
 
and displays two rows of glistening 
 
fangs. Ho weighs 600 pounds. The 
 
name Roosevelt was given him because 
 
he was so fierce and handsome. The 
 
Polar bear is an equally fine specimen 
 
of his family. Ho tramps around 
 
his cage all day in a restless manner, 
 
but rarely utters a sound. He weighs 
 
600 pounds. Ho Is called Peary, in honor 
 
of the Arctic explorer. 
 
Roosevelt started the fighting by 
 
landing with the -left part- on. Bruin's 
 
right shoulder. Owing to the enormously 
 
thick fur on the bear the blow 
 
did l i t t l e damage, although the fur 
 
flew. Peary showed a desire to get to 
 
close quarters. Roosevelt preferred to 
 
use his agile feet, delivering quick, vicious 
 
'blows and hopping aside; with 
 
lightning Quickness. the first round 
 
was principally open fighting of this 
 
kind. Peary losing much fur. 
 
In the second round Roosevelt landed 
 
heavily on Peary's nose-, knocking 
 
off a considerable portion of It. Peary 
 
seemed groggy, and Roosevelt seized 
 
the opportunity to throw in a dozen 
 
blows. Peary, however, had 
 
plenty of stamina. -He backed up 
 
against the bars and rose on his: hind 
 
legs. When Roosevelt leaped at his 
 
throat ho caught the lion a fearful 
 
on the side of his head, knocking him 
 
to the floor with a great thud 
 
both then needed a rest. 
 
In the third round Roosevelt went at 
 
once for Peary's Injured nose. The 
 
latter, however, dodged cleverly. While 
 
Roosevelt 'was rushing past Peary the 
 
l a t t e r squeezed him against the bars 
 
and began clawing,' and chewing at his 
 
relatively uncovered hind quarters. 
 
Roosevelt was unable to hit back effectively 
 
but finally succeeded In 
 
dragging himself away, uttering fearful 
 
howls and roars as he did so. 
 
Roosevelt opened the fourth round 
 
In a sensational' manner by leaping 
 
high into the air and landing- on 
 
Peary's back. This worried the rather 
 
Slow bear, and Roosevelt was left at 
 
liberty to dig into his back for some 
 
seconds. By a terrific effort Peary threw 
 
Roosevelt sideways off his back, so 
 
t h a t the lion- landed on the floor with 
 
a great crush. 
 
The -proprietor of the show and all 
 
the keepers were now around the cage 
 
doing what they could to separate the 
 
fighters. The owner realized, that every 
 
time the lion landed on the bear 
 
he knocked $50 worth, of value off him, 
 
not to speak of the possibility that 
 
both might be killed. Ac first the keepers 
 
tried long- poles and iron rods on 
 
the raging beasts, hut both were utterly 
 
disregarded. They smashed the 
 
poles like matches und knocked the 
 
iron rods back so that the men holding 
 
them were Injured. 
 
In the fifth round the lion appeared 
 
A little groggy as the result of his furious 
 
and breathless fighting. He panted 
 
heavily and trembled as he hit out 
 
at Peary. The latter pressed his opponent 
 
steadily. He tore large patches 
 
of skin from his body and seemed very 
 
nearly victor. .Suddenly the lion roused 
 
himself and gave the bear a fearful 
 
blow on his already much damaged 
 
nose. Peary stepped back. That was 
 
the signal 'for a brief return, to their 
 
corners 
 
The lion, began hostilities in the 
 
sixth* round by fixing his teeth In 
 
Peary's left hind leg. The bear tried to 
 
shake him off but the Lion held on like; 
 
death. 
 
Ono of the keepers here- intervened 
 
by jabbing a red hot iron against the 
 
lion's muzzle. A fearful stench of 
 
burning flesh and hair filled the air. 
 
The lion was at last compelled to let 
 
go of the bear. he jumped back snarl- 
 
ing horribly at the human intruder. 
 
The bear seized the opportunity to 
 
throw himself on the lion and bury his 
 
teeth in the latter's back. The keeper 
 
then turned the Iron on the bear and 
 
the fight was- stopped fop a few moments, 
 
" 
 
Roosevelt quickly recovered from the 
 
weakness he had shown and began the 
 
seventh round -with a great rush. He 
 
tore Peary's coat until be was nothing 
 
but a shapeless mass of bloody tattered 
 
fur. "The unfortunate- bear tried 
 
to hug the lion. thinking no doubt, 
 
that would stop his Jabs, but the. lion 
 
did not care for this method of fighting. 
 
Peary rose up on his hind legs 
 
and Roosevelt dealt him a right paw 
 
smash that tore most of the fur off his 
 
chest. " - 
 
The two fighters danced around and 
 
rolled 'over one another so rapidly 
 
that the keepers were unable for the 
 
time to make any attempt to separate 
 
them. 
 
The ninth round began -with both 
 
fighters groggy, but still 1n the ring- 
 
The lion, had had his right paw bitten 
 
through. His mane was nearly all torn 
 
away. His back and hind quarters 
 
, were badly damaged. His left leg was 
 
nearly useless. He could not see out of 
 
his right eye 
 
The bear was much more badly off 
 
There was not a space on him as large as 
 
A man's hand that was not torn and 
 
Bloody His head was in such a 
 
deplorable condition that his nose and 
 
eyes were unrecognizable. All his paws 
 
were bitten through. His back was 
 
literally ploughed by the lion's claws. 
 
still, they kept on fighting. They 
 
growled, roared. shrieked, moaned and 
 
splattered as they did so. 
 
The bear now accomplished what he 
 
had been trying all along to do. He got 
 
a fair grip. But this move proved after 
 
all to be Peary's ruin The bear hugged 
 
the lion until the by-standers could 
 
hear the feline lighter's bones creak 
 
and groan. The lion- gasped almost 
 
breathless, but still he managed to get 
 
teeth into the under side of the 
 
bear's .throat, one of the most vulnerable 
 
parts of his body. 
 
In the death embrace the tenth 
 
round was fought out. The bear kept 
 
on squeezing the lion kept on. gripping 
 
with his teeth. The throat grip was 
 
more than the bear could stand. slowly 
 
he relaxed his grip an-d sank on his 
 
Back beaten and half dead. 
 
The lion stood over him snarling as 
 
if he meant to eat him. At this moment 
 
a courageous Keeper stepped up 
 
and smote Roosevelt between the eyes 
 
with-an iron bar. He then seemed to 
 
think he had had enough and dragged 
 
himself back to his cage quietly, where 
 
he was "barred In. 
 
The circus men secured the animals 
 
with ropes, and four veterinary surgeons 
 
set to work on their 
 
wounds. They bound them up with 
 
antiseptic dressings wherever they 
 
could and in other places used largo 
 
strips of plaster. 
 
The lion will probably recover, but 
 
The condition of the bear is desperate. 
 
......there you go.  
 

I think most of the injuries on the lion and bear were from those jackasses smoting them with those iron bars! That was a harsh, but yet interesting story Damon. 
 
 
 
But....That polar bear was the same size, and yes that is rare. 
 
That was a small polar bear. 
 
 
 
Polar Bears can reach maximum sizes of up to 1500 lbs, and I know this for a fact. They've also been spotted hunting and killing beluga whales, and even Walrus, which are huge animals! 
 
 
 
Now, a fight between the lion and the brown bear would be completely different in my opinion, because the polar bear may be bigger,but the brown bear is stronger and faster (up to 40 mph)! 
 
 
 
That would be the end for the lion 
 
:(

Kenny, we aren`t talking of maximum sizes of the polar bear....of course a polar bear may reach over 1000 lbs. however, such is based upon food consumption....if the food intake should be lower than what most may gather in the wild, their weight would likewise be lower. and also, grizzlies, which are a species of brown bear, actually can run 30 mph...there are no reliable documents of bears running 40 mph. (i do have sources for the speed of the bear); 
 
http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/yell/vol14-1-2a.htm 
 
and, here`s a fight between a lion and a russian, or brown bear; 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/lionkillsrussianbear.jpg 
 
also, here`s an account where a lion defeats a tiger, and, almost immediately afterwards, had to contend with a bear (was refered to as bruin, suggesting it was likely a brown bear); 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/books_003-25-1-1.png 
 
...even though the lion was like;y tired from fighting the tiger, he almost immediately took on the bear, and apparently defeated his opponent much sooner. this speaks volumes of the fighting prowess of the lion.

Damon, hey man, you don't have to get all upset I just want to set you straight on bear facts. You're wrong about that size difference, the Grizzly is more than twice the size of a male lion-its true, a lion is 450 lbs and a Grizzly is 900 lbs-both are average although they both can get larger with the lion only gaining 100 lbs more than its average(550 lbs max)and Grizzly's have made over 1200 lbs. Grizzly's are cited as running at 35 mph by national geographic and animal planet as well as different experts on bears-35 mph! Now Polar Bears are on average,1600 lbs and have gotten over 2400 lbs in captivity-these mightiest of beasts have killed baluga whales, 4000 lb bull walruses(no small feat)and polar bears can run 35 mph as well as has been documented. Sadly to say, I think the lion would win over a black bear-black bears are ave 350-450 lbs although larger ones have been recorded but not the norm.

Attila, i was far from upset. but, i also mentioned actual records of the mass of the grizzly bear, which is about the same as the lion; 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/averageweightsofgrizzlybears.jpg  
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/effectsoffoodavailabilityofweightsg.jpg  
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/weightofmaleandfemalegrizzlies.jpg  
and, most sites which state the grizzly can run 35 mph is quoting a long known figure in scientific literature, but one unsupported by actual data.....just look at the source in my last post. 
 
also, polar bears don`t average 1600`s...that would be an overlarge specimen. i have records upon these animals as well...if you want to see them?....they averaged roughly 1000 lbs, but, this was based upon a rich food consumption, and likewise excluding the mass they lost after spring. 
 
...and, in my previous post, i also showed records of a lion defeating a brown bear, and a polar bear......the one before my comment to you.  
 

also, here`s some data upon the average weight of lions; 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/5981xe1lqg-1-1-1.gif 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/420poundlion-2.jpg  
 
...there you go. as you can see, grizzlies are no larger than lions.

Damon, I really don't want to argue man, Grizzly's are about double the lions weight-they weigh more than tigers also-grizzlies av weight is 850-900 lbs for an av male although they have been several specimans over 1200 lbs. As for the polar bear-an african american biologist on polar bears said on av the polar bear is 1600 lbs-thats brand new data collected by this guy studying them in teh field, not old information which was innaccurate due to misnomers and lacking data. Thats the truth-and lions av weight for an adult is only 450-550 lbs although there have been some that have been larger, however Grizzly's are almost double-its true, don't get mad about animal facts-this is updated true and accurate data as collected by biologists in the field now. They can run 35 mph-thats how they catch there prey-and have been recorded doing so. No lion has even met a polar bear-the true king of carnivores. You don't have to get so fanatical about the animal you like best to get bits and peices of facts one from one page,one from another to peice together false statements about an already magnificent animal-they cannot and have not killed polar bears-and I really pity the fools who endangered both animals were they to try this foolishness. These are bear facts, nowyou don't have to believe them, but that doesn't alter the fact that that information is true and accurate. Thanks

Damon, this is old, useless information which was innaccurate. New studies show the size of these grizzly's to be larger-maybe their diet is providing them with more mass now than before. Also, information from ppl such as timothy treadwell who lived amongst the kings of north america stated their size to be larger. I would only believe people who lived and worked exclusively, not a general biologist who's studies are prismed by a myriad of other species causing innaccurate data to be reported which is many times the case. In any event, no lion has ever reached the 100-1200 lbs that grizzlys have, that itself is more proof as them being exponentially larger.

...Damon, is there an animal that you think COULD, in fact, kill the lion in a fight, with the lion having no shot at all? 
 
 
 
If you say no, then we all know you just love the shit out of lions, but if you say yes, please list them. 
 
 
 
Attila is right and he proves a much better point than you do! Every animal that we match up against the lion..You always say the lion beats it and then you go on to say that you have one or more records of a lion beating a bear or a tiger in a fight, and from what i've seen the animals were about the same size as the lion, and Damon...Bears are bigger! 
 
You cannot and will not convince me otherwise, it will not happen! 
 
 
 
The smallest average of a grizzly bear is 650-700 lbs, the highest average is 800-900 lbs. And if you're talking about any brown bear, like the coastal brown bears of alaska, their computed average is of 900-1000 lbs, but they can reach maximum proportions of up to 1800 lbs! 
 
 
 
And now you're probably gonna tell me that "we're not talking about maximum sizes of these animals kenny we're talking about the average" Well let me ask you this....What is so exciting about seeing average animals fighting? You see a lot more action and louder sound effects when the larger animals are fighting!! 
 
 
 
a 550 lb Lion vs a 1500 lb bear? 
 
 
 
Bear wins, hands down. 
 
 
 

oh, and Attila...When you said that bears are bigger than tigers, that's just gonna lead him to tell you that lions are bigger than tigers, trust me! I know this fool. 
 
 
 
He thinks that the lion's shit don't stink. 
 
 
 
And Damon, it does bad when you compare it to these other animals that we're mentioning.

Attila, did you look at the actual studies i showed, upon the weight of male grizzly bears?....well, the adult specimens averaged 192 kg.....about the same as lions. 
 
and, the highest speed recorded from a grizzly was 30 mph...i already showed the source in proof of this. you have not shown a SHRED of evidence for ANY of your statements.  
 
and, lions average average 420 lbs, or 190 kg...i know this for a fact, as i have every modern document published upon the weight of these animals, and i assure no lion population averages up to 550 lbs.  
 
i`ve already shown the records of a lion defeating a polar bear, on two occasions, and two other records of a lion defeating a brown bear. that shows they can, and do defeat these animals in battle. and, i`m not fanatical......you are making statements which studies do not support.

Attila, timothy treadwell never weighed bears, so, how can he conclude they are larger?...through observation?....that is not an accurate way of determining the weight of these animals. and, that study i showed was fairly recent.  
 
grizzlies don`t weigh any more than lions, and, where are your documents to prove this?.....

Kenny, weight aside, the actual body size of grizzlies is no more greater than that of lions. simply put, proportionately (i.e. length, height, bone mass) they are roughly equal. however, the size of bears, as i`ve stated many times, is related to food intake. so, they can, and do grow heavier...but, that is in populations where the food intake is greater than the corresponding lion populations. 
 
and yes, there are animals that can defeat the lion. elephants, even tigers can, on occasion, defeat these animals....bears as well. lions aren`t always victorious, nor have i ever stated such. and, i already showed a record of the average size of grizzly bears....did you even look at it?...they averaged 192 kg.....about the same as lions.  
 
and, of course a much larger bear will defeat a lion half his size. what kind of fight is that?.....not only is it unfair, but, you`d basically be comparing one of, if not the largest grizzly on record, with a lion of near normal proportions.

also, Kenny, you don`t know me. i have NEVER stated lions were bigger than tigers. for as long as i can remember, and, trust me, my statements have never changed upon this, i have stated lions and tigers were of equal mass. i don`t relate my statements to what other posters say...i have the actual records to prove my points. 
 
i have every modern document published upon the mass of lions and tigers, and, if you give me your email, i could show them to you.....but, the list is rather long!

Damon, you seem determined to argue-yes the lion is magnificent animal, but a Grzzly is known throughout the scientific community to grow up to 1200 lbs-thats already known science, whereas no lion has ever reached this massive size, so how are grizzlys no larger when animal biologists in the world agree? This is old info, bears now are getting larger, but even old studies say these giants as being larger-oh, the 400 lb is a young adult before putting on fat and muscle to hibernate, they will put on 4-500 more lbs of muscle and fat from the protein rich salmon and other foods they kill. Lions never get this size, for you to say this either makes you a fanatic purposefully ignoring facts, or you don't know a darn thing about bears. I lived out in WA state w/my best friend and i've seen these guys-my best friends fishing buddy has a Grizzly thats 913 lbs-is that the same size as a lion? He is likely to get larger the guy says, also. http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:9zEJEJNHG04Jwww.amphi.com/~crobson/animals/Period05%255Cgrizzly_bear_fc.htm+grizzly+bear+bite+force&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us This ppersons resources checked out fine-yes, they DO run at 35 mph except when running downhill because of the shoulder hump, then they run slower, but they still go 35 mph-a fact which they all agree on. Scientists come up with different weights for these giants, however all agree about the large number of ones tippping scales at 1000 lbs and over up to 1200 lbs. Timothy Treadwell did not weigh them, but he recorded how they live and what they do, watched them kill with one swipe as i and my best friend have seen eyewitness to a Grizzly killing a moose with a single blow while it was drinking in a stream. He does agree with the speed of th ebear at 35 mph though. 
 

Damon, I forgot to add one thing: there are two averages-one while they're starving at or around 400-450 lbs before packing on the pounds, or you can average one after they pack on the pounds 800-900 lbs-they spend equal amounts of time at either weight, so therefore you cannot say this bear is only 400 lbs, because he will morph into a behemoth when he bulks up for the winter, do you understand what I'm getting at here?

Attila, you obviously did not read the sources i showed. the source i showed was related to the average of the grizzly, throughout the year......and, it was 192 kg. an average of grizzlies based upon a specific time of the year, is limited, and biased, as there weight fluctuates much between the months. but, they were weighed throughout various months, not just the time in which they lose mass. 
 
and, i said the bear was 192 kg, which is about 422 lbs or so. grizzlies are no larger than lions.

I read them, doesn't mean they were accurate though-that is the point, isn't it? The Grizzly does not have ONE SINGLE WEIGHT throughout the year, he is starving at or around 400-450 lbs, and that same weight after hibernation-the REST of the year(6 months ) is spent at the larger weight he puts on for winter bulking up, like I said, I lived in Grizz country, I know abou tthese kings of North America-yoiu have to if you want to remain safe and alive in Grizzly country as we call it. There is no average for a Grizzly at 422 lbs-they GAIN WEIGHT for winter! If you weigh them when they bulk up for 6 months, obviously you will have a different and higher weight. They are still stated as being larger(than lions, but not specific)because of their ability to grow to such enormous sizes-they have teh capacity whereas the lion does not. Also, on words I capped, I wasn't yellling, it was to stress the word on which I capped. No need to gtet bent out of shape here, its animal biology.

Damon, even on Wildlife Documentary, when they show the bears, the bears are a hell of a lot bigger than 192 kg, the smallest male that I saw was well over 240 kg and he was fighting a bear that dwarfed him!! Even the female grizzlies are over 192 kg, it's barbaric to say that these animals are on average no bigger than lions! 
 
 
 
And to answer your question, No, I did not read what you posted because it would be a waste of time, like I said earlier, you cannot and will not convince me otherwise! I know this for a FACT, I'm not in denial, and I know what I'm talking about!

attila, that`s where your mistake lies. the study i mentioned, gave an average throughout the WHOLE year, rather than a figure based upon a single point of the year. simply including the weights when the bears are at their highest is biased, and, even then, the heaviest in that study was only a bit over 300 kg, dispite your statements to suggest they average roughly that amount. i have another source which gives an average of 490 lbs...and, that is generous, as it compare several studies. it seems the studies do not support your statements. instead of talking of the studies you know of, show them. if you weigh the bears when they bulk up, that is biased, and exactly my point that seem not to get. weighing the bears at their highets weights is not conclusive, as their weights vary between the years, but, if you weigh them THROUGHOUT the year, you can get a fair average of their weights.

also, attila, having the capacity to grow larger has NOTHING to do with the average sizes of these specimens......the average grizzly, based upon the study, by EXPERTS, are no larger than lions. and, i`m far from being bent out of shape. but, you`re supporting a statement which you have yet to prove. many sources state the grizzly is large, but, most usually those are estimates or asymptotic figures. they aren`t reliable.

Average weight for a male grizzly is 550 lbs or 247 kg! 
 
 
 
http://www.greatbear.org/brownbear.htm 
 
 
 
There you go, Damon!

..Kenny, you cannot judge the weight of a bear just by appearance alone. and, why don`t you show your studies, where the grizzlies apparently averaged over 192 kg....and, i`m referring to actual records, not a website merely reporting weight figures. i`m talking of actual data reported by scientists in the field, like i have shown, though you neglected to read them....which is likely the cause of your ignorance in this discussion. you simply don`t WANT to believe grizzlies are no smaller than lions. but, the study i mentioned was based upon 65 adult males, measured THROUGHOUT the year, rather than at one single point in time, which is rather biased, and the data gathered from such inconclusive. 
 
since you know what you`re talking about, show the data, from scientists, to prove your point.

kenny, that wasn`t a scientific study you showed...but merely a website reporting a weight figure. i mentioned studies from scientists where the weight of these animals were verified, and based upon a large number of specimens measured.  
 
anyone, including me, can make a website. mention a document reported by known scientists, not some unknown website. my source was a scientific article, in pdf format, reported by a scientist in the field.

Didn't you read what I posted? They CANNOT have JUST one average throughout the year as they bulk up-is it biased to count their size as merely their stariving weight of 400 lbs? That would be tantamount to me counting the low weight of the lion, then. This however, is different as bears have different physiologies than lions as bears double or more their weights, lions do not. 6 months out of th eyear, a bear weighs in at the larger wight, the otherh 6 months he is the smaller weight, therefore there are 2 averages. So if you take the small average when comparing, then you must do so for the lion as well, because a lion may NOT encounter a 450 lbs bear, but an 850 lb one-depending on when seasonally they meet. Here is a link, the only way these two will meet is through zoos, and in the link provided, under DESCRIPTION, you wil find they say in New Jersey tehre is a bear named Goliath weighs 2,200 lbs-he's not even the largest bear-that one is 2,400 lbs!! It further states they can run 40 mph! If they were teh same size as the lion, why do experts say " the bear is the largest land based predator on earth"? Think about it.

Haha, I forgot the link-here it is!  
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Bear

Damon, you're just simply in denial! 
 
 
 
That's why you're so ignorant in the discussion. 
 
 
 
There's nothing wrong with that either, ignorant is the way to go! 
 
 
 
Siberian Tigers prey on bears that weigh 192 kg! But they tend to stay away from Bears that are much larger than that, which SHOULD prove to you that bears are far more superior animals than big cats.

Damon, you just got caught in a lie! You said that Tigers can beat Lions in a fight, but before that, you were bragging about Lions winning because they're better fighters and blah blah blah. 
 
 
 
So, now it's safe to call you a LIAR, LIAR!! 
 
 
 
And by the way, a 550 lb Lion is a big lion, and a 1500 lb Bear is a big bear, so that would not be an unfair fight! Too bad for the lion he can't reach those maximum sizes that the bears can! 
 
 
 
Damon you're just so dumb, everything you say is the same shit we've been hearing for the past 3 months!! Nothing is new with you! 
 
 
 
 
 
a 550 lb Lion vs a 1500 lbs Bear? 
 
 
 
Bear wins, hands down.

[edit] Hybrids 
 
Main article: Grizzly–polar bear hybrid 
 
A grizzly–polar bear hybrid (known as a Pizzly Bear or Grolar bear) is a rare ursid hybrid resulting from a union of a brown bear and a polar bear. It has occurred both in captivity and in the wild. In 2006, the occurrence of this hybrid in nature was confirmed by testing the DNA of a strange-looking bear that had been shot in the Canadian arctic;[7][8][9] Previously, the hybrid had been produced in zoos and was considered a "cryptid" (a hypothesized animal for which there is no scientific proof of existence in the wild). 
 
[edit] Description 
 
A Eurasian Brown Bear running. Brown bears can be fast runners despite their size, capable of speeds of up to 64 km/h (40 mph)Brown bears have furry coats in shades of blonde, brown, black, or a combination of those colors. The longer outer guard hairs are often tipped with white or silver, giving a "grizzled" appearance. Their tail is 4–5 inches (10–13 cm) long.[10] Like all bears, brown bears are plantigrades and can stand up on their hind legs for extended periods of time. Brown bears have a large hump of muscle over their shoulders which distinguishes them from other species.[11] Brown bears are very powerful, and can break the backs and necks of large prey. The forearms end in massive paws with claws up to 15 cm (5.9 in) in length which are mainly used for digging. The claws are not retractable, and have relatively blunt points. Their heads are large and round with a concave facial profile, a characteristic used to distinguish them from other bears. Males are 38–50% larger than females.[10] 
 
The normal range of physical dimensions for a brown bear is a head-and-body length of 1.7 to 2.8 meters (5.6 to 9.2 ft) and a shoulder height of 90 to 150 centimeters (35–60 in). The smallest subspecies is the Eurasian Brown Bear whose mature females weigh as little as 90 kg (200 lb).[12] Barely larger, Grizzly Bears from the Yukon region (which are a third smaller than most grizzlies) can weigh as little as 100 kg (220 lb) in the spring[13] and the Syrian Brown Bear, with mature females weighing as little as 150 kg (330 lb). The largest subspecies are the Kodiak bear, Siberian Brown Bear, and the bears from coastal Russia and Alaska. It is not unusual for large male Kodiak Bears to stand over 3 m (9.8 ft) while on their hind legs, and to weigh up to 680 kg (1,500 lb).[14] The largest wild Kodiak bear on record weighed over 1,100 kilograms (2,400 lb).[10] Bears raised in zoos are often heavier than wild bears because of regular feeding and limited movement. In zoos, bears may weigh up to 900 kilograms (2,000 lb), one example being "Goliath" from New Jersey's Space Farms Zoo and Museum. Another example is Kodiak brown bear "Barbucha" at the zoo in Duisburg, who weighs 1000 kilograms (2200 lb).[15] Size seems related to food availability, and subspecies distinctions is more related to nutrition than geographical location.[16] 
 
Despite their size, some brown bears have been clocked at speeds in excess of 64 km/h (40 mph).[17] 
 
One of the subspecies of the brown bear, the Kodiak bear, which is native to Kodiak Island, matches the polar bear as the largest member of the bear family,[2] and as the largest land predator.[3] The hides and skulls of the two species are comparable in size, thus making morphological comparisons difficult as it is often difficult to weigh wild specimens.[3] Do you see Damon, where it states they are the worlds largest carnivore?(lions are included-Grizzly's are not as they are omnivores eating everything)Here is another important link: http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/mysteries/bear.html  
 
Polar Bear Brown Bear  
 
Average Weight of Mature Male 900-1,500 pounds 500-900 pounds  
 
Heaviest Recorded 2,210 pounds 2,500+ pounds  
 
Average Length of Mature Male 8-8.4 feet >7-10 feet  
 
 
 
Source: The Great Bear Almanac by Gary Brown 
 
This should help you to understand the sizes of bears and that there are 2 averages, one in th espring and summer at the lean starving weight, and the larger one, from Sept-spring when they come out of hibernation. This should dispel any prior myths you may have had about the largest carnivores on earth, bears.(it says that repeatedly in scientific reports as well as the links I've provided you with. I love the big cats, but they are smaller. 
 
 
 

And about those websites I've been getting my info on...I believe them more than I believe you, because Like you said, I don't know you, and I don't trust your credibility! 
 
 
 
The reason these websites are made is for people to put down their KNOWLEDGE of these animals, not just random shit like you would do! 
 
 
 
It's their knowledge of these animals. And a grizzly's average weight is more than or > 192 kg, it's barbaric to say otherwise! 
 
 
 
You're in simply in denial, and yes I know what that means, and I really believe you're in denial!! 
 
 
 
You cannot and will not convince me on your ignorant bullshit! 
 
 
 
You're not convincing anybody else either besides hard core lion fans!! 
 
 
 
And if you're fanatic over an animal, then you're just gonna keep repeating the same things over and over, and it gets extremely tiring and annoying to read! 
 
 
 
You're probably the only person who thinks Lions and Grizzly Bears are the same size. 
 
 
 
190 kg is not average for a lion, that is a pretty big lion, but not the biggest! 
 
 
 
And 192 kg is DEFINITELY NOT average for a grizzly bear, in fact that is just downright SMALL for a grizzly bear, that's average for a black bear!! 
 
 
 
Are you sure those aren't black bears they're talking about? 
 
 
 
A black bear is a good match for a lion, but the lion will win. 
 
 
 
A grizzly bear is just too much BEAR for the lion to handle, and the lion will surely die if he don't have his protective pride with him. That is why they hunt in packs, because they can't hold their ground in a one on one fight with a large animal, like a grizzly bear which averages 247 kg! 
 
 
 
But chances of a lion even beating a bear that small (even though it's the average) are very slim as well! Especially if it's a grizzly!!! 
 
 
 
When I think of a grizzly, I think of a huge, 1000 lbs monster, not a 400-500 lb little teddy bear, so.. up yours!

Actually Kenny, bears can weigh over 2500 lbs as I posted above, they have that bear at over 2400 lbs! they can keep growing as long as they live, and can live anywhere from 30-45 yrs old, sadly Bart the Bear, star of movies in hollywood such as The Bear and lots of other movies which I can't remember off th etop of my head died at around 20 yrs-he grew to be a big boy as well. Did you guys know that there used to be the largest carnivore(mammal)living right here in the US? THE short-face bear who hunted mammoths, even chasing away and sometimes killing the lions that used to be here also. Also, the largest black bear was recorded as being 880 lbs(north Carolina) and the largest in virginia was well over 700 lbs. All bears have the propensity to grow very large when compared with the "norm". Polar bears are teh largest, albeit the Kodiak is the same size and sometimes larger(depends on food, once again). All are marvelous creatures just the way they are, no need for people to make animals out to be more than what awesome capabilities they already display-that would be fanatical, and the world already has enough fanatics in them! Now the facts I posted here are true and correct, i have presented them honestly, provided updated links to articles and data provided by animal biologist working exclusively with the bear, not just a general animal biologist who do gereral incomplete or sometimes innaccurate data, so this sums it up! Thanks ppl! 
 
Attila

Yeah, Bart the Bear was in "The Edge" with Anthony Hopkins and Alec Baldwin, that was a huge bear! 
 
He weighed 1700 lbs in that movie. 
 
 
 
And the short faced bear was named Arctodus Simus, and he averaged 2000 lbs, and stood 13 feet tall, and yeah, he's the reason lions don't live in North America, he wiped them all out! 
 
 
 
I once told Damon of this, and he said "We are not talking of animals which are extinct." 
 
 
 
Who cares if they're extinct, sooner or later, the African lion and the grizzly are gonna be extinct too, that is living proof that bears are far superior animals than lions.

Yeah, you're right. I wasn't for sure 100% if he was in that movie or not, so I didn't put that in my post. Here is a link to a Grizzly that was killed unfortunately-I really hate that it was shot, the story isn't entirely correct-teh guy didn't work for the park service but rather was an airmen in USAF. Have a look at the link and scroll down to where the paw is and look how its the width of a persons chest!! http://www.impactlab.com/2006/11/21/the-worlds-record-largest-bear/ 
 
YES,thats the one-Arctodus Simus who could look a 6 ft tall man in the eyes while being on all 4's!!  
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctodus_simus 
 
We need to all stick together since we're passionate about these predators/omnivores and try and do what we can to save tehm-I know that for myself, my wofe and I were going to volunteer to help the polar bear, but in order to do so from what we've researched last year and this, you have to be a native of Alaska, so there goes that. Teh only way they said was to donate money, and since we're not billionares, we opted to help in the field. You're right, kenny, pretty soon these animals Bears, Tigers and Lions will be extinct unless this generation bans together to save them-I know as for the bear, as long as the Asian market has the big and profitable bear gall bladder trade which has been responsible for Siberia's declining population as well as the Asiatic bear, then we will be stymied unless we move to make our voices heard in the form of wildlife conservation bills for each animal, I knoow Tigers are on the verge of extiction b/c of fear of the big cat and his killing of the woodsmen in places like the Sundabar regions in India and the mangrove swamps where I went while in the Marines. At the rate of those horrible african countries to fail in protecting their wildlife from game-hunting and taking bribes from poachers, lions won't last long either, so you guys should try and find out ways to save these animals and spread the word instead of saying "oh the lion can kick anybody's ass" and so forth-you'd actually be helping the animal/s you like best and would be their voice. Thats what croc hunter did.

ATTila, that source i showed did not give any starvaing weights of the grizzly....they measured the grizzlies at different times of the year....they did not merely report their lowest weights, they gave an average of these animals weights throughout the year...do you know what that means?.... 
 
 
 
 
 
...simply put, they weighed males at different times of the year....they weighed both large and not-so large specimens....and, the average they came to was 192 kg. of course grizzlies can grow to enormous weights. no one doubt this....but, you`re doing the same thing you accuse me of....you`re mentioning (though you`ve offered no records as proof) weights the grizzly may attain at the height of their mass....i`m mentioning an AVERAGE weight of these animals THROUGHOUT the year, not when they are starving, which would be at a specific time of the year. 
 
 
 
and, of course bears can get up to 1200 lbs. what does that mean?....besides that, you showed records from a website, and which was not reported by an expert. you are also mentioning the weights of captive grizzlies....even then, it may be an estimate. i mentioned records of specimens in the wild. 
 
 
 
..and, a grizzly has NEVER been measured at 40 mph.....just because a source says so, doesn`t mean anything. i have actual records of the speed of these animals being timed.

Attila, wikipedia is not run by experts, and, frankly it can be edited by anyone. i did not mention any weights of starving grizzlies. i mentioned average weights of many animals, weighed at different times throughout the year...not merely when they are at their lowest weights. a total of 65 adult males were measured, and, based upon fat content, they were FAR from starving.

Kenny, tigers have indeed been known to prey upon bears of roughly equal mass...and yes, they enerally avoid confrontation with bears larger than themselves.....but, this is due to the fact that they, much like the bears, do not want to risk injury. even if the tiger should win, he may still be mortally wounded, or at a point where is hunting ability may be hampered...he`d much rather avoid conflict, which is why only a small portion of bears constitute the diet of tigers. 
 
 
 
bears avoid confrontation as well....why get into a fight when they can find a meal elsewhere?...

Kenny, a 1500 lb grizzly would be an overlarge specimen...one of the largest, if not the largest on record. a 550 lb lion, though large, is much more possible than with a bear over 1000 lbs....so, that would be far from a fair fight. 
 
 
 
also, you state i lied before....no, i did not lie. tigers can, on occasion, defeat lions in battle. the lion is not always victorious. however, lions are the more CONSISTENT winner, which was my point before, but one you obviously failed to understand. 
 
 
 
and, lions live in groups because of the extreme competition they receive....it has nothing to do, specifically, with advantages incurred during the hunt. kenny, you obviously know very little about lions. read ACTUAL studies, not unreliable websites. all my documents come from mostly from experts, or else respected figures. 
 

and, again, Attila...i did not mention any weights of starving grizzlies. based upon the fat content of these bears, they were fit. the weights gathered from specimens weighed THROUGHOUT the year, not merely in the summer, or at times when their weights were lowest. 
 
 
 
likewise, you are following records reported by unreliable websites. i have actual records from scientists who has personally weighed these animals. 
 
 
 

I geve you more than wikipedia, however, scientists put there information on search engines which in turn, are collected by google. I also have many books on bears. Wikipedia site I gave you had reliable and accurate data gathered by scientists and biologists in their prospective field studies-its as accurate if you talked with a biologist, because it ends up there anyway. Look at the myriad of ref at the bottom and you will see. I know bears, you know lions, although i've studied them as well being an animal enthusiast. If measured throughout the year, their weights would be different, so I don't see how you can come up with an average for an animal who 6 months out of the year, doubles his weight. Its 6 months heavy, 6 months lean-so you cannot use merely his leanest weight and say "well thats his average i'll use in comparing him to a lion" because thats just innacurrate. They only-unlike big cats, have the propensity to double and sometimes more than double their weight. You use the heavy side of the ave weight on lions(450 lbs) then you handicap the Grizzly which is known to be an 800 lb animal and alot of them larger, and give him the low-end weight on the scale. I've been to that guys house in WA and his bear is always bigger than 900 lbs-he's an adult and is fed pigs, slaughtered cattle with his veggies and fruit they give him. 
 
To answer your above questions, They have been recorded as 40 mph by more than a few documents-previously they have been recorded at 35 mph, they should never be underestimated, because they CAN run that fast-we pwople who live with them know of their speed. 
 
Real scientists did put information on wikipedia and in resources such as books and manuscripts that wikipedia uses, so theres nothing wrong with that.

Bears such as brown polar and grizzly are quite larger than lions, they are always cited as being the largest land predator on earth, if lions are the same, why do they consistantly refer to them as being the largest predators on land? Anyway, you should just say that you are misinformed and leave it at that, beecause the information to which you're talking is simply unfair and untrue. Anyway, you should be putting your efforts into saving animals, here's the link:www.joinwwf.org or call toll-free at 1-888-666-1198

Well, Damon-you should take what I said above to heart, instead of useless argueing despite being shown lions are smaller by authorities on bears, you should try and put forth efforts to do what you can to make a difference to whatever animal you would like to save from extimction or poaching-the amount of time you spend on here, you could get alot done for the animal of your choice-btw, my favorite animals are the spotted Hyena(thats how i learn about lions)Rhinos, both white and black, and Polar bears. Pizzly's and Grolar bears are interesting raritys also. Here's info that is also accurate. They can run 35 mph and if they now say 40, maybe they weren't accurately recorded when they stated that. Heres another link: 
 
http://yukondelta.fws.gov/pdf/brownbear.pdf

This information is from an author/expert biologist on bears; Gary Brown in "The Great Bear Almanac" 
 
 
 
Polar Bear Brown Bear  
 
 
 
Average Weight of Mature Male 900-1,500 pounds 500-900 pounds  
 
 
 
Heaviest Recorded 2,210 pounds 2,500+ pounds  
 
 
 
Average Length of Mature Male 8-8.4 feet >7-10 feet  
 
Brown bears can be fast runners despite their size, capable of speeds of up to 64 km/h (40 mph). The largest subspecies are the Kodiak bear, Siberian Brown Bear, and the bears from coastal Russia and Alaska. It is not unusual for large male Kodiak Bears to stand over 3 m (9.8 ft) while on their hind legs, and to weigh up to 680 kg (1,500 lb).[14] The largest wild Kodiak bear on record weighed over 1,100 kilograms (2,400 lb).[Despite their size, some brown bears have been clocked at speeds in excess of 64 km/h (40 mph).[17]  
 
 
 
Source: The Great Bear Almanac by Gary Brown  
 
There you go-40 mph. I studied bears and ALWAYS knew it was 35 mph as natgeo, animal planet, myriad of books I have read have all stated this, however, its 2009 and better measuring equiptment is readily available and past discrepancies are merely corrected, thats all. There is nothing wrong with these resources, so just relax and take in the information I worked to supply you with-its all about educating people!  
 

Attila, i love all animals, but you too seems to be spending a great deal of time on this site. 
 
and, the great bear almanac states the grizzly averages 490 lbs, despite your many claims that it is heavier. and those weights of the polar bear was based off weights of these animals, before they lost mass, which occured after spring. a more reliable figure would be to give an average weight of these animals measured THROUGHOUT the year/years, rather than during a specific time of the year, such as when they are at their heaviest. 
 
and, male black bears average 90 - 145 kg, or less; 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/bodymassofblackbears2.jpg 
 
..and, i`ve also shown a few records (either you did not see them, or else you ignore them) of lions defeating brown bears and polar bears as well. 
 
and, grizzlies have NEVER been clocked at 40 mph...those are merely unsubstantiated claims. the author did not himself measure the speed of bears....he merely heard of the figure. here is some actual records on the speed of grizzlies; 
 
http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/yell/vol14-1-2a.htm 
 
...the most reliable record is 30 mph.

also, Attila, i don`t use the heavy side on the weight of lions. they average about 190 kg, according to most records, and indeed i have every modern document published upon the weights of these animals. 
 
...comparatively speaking, my data upon bears is lacking, but, i have a great deal more info than you do. 
 
...most of the sources you showed either gave note to estimates upon the weights of these animals, or upon studies on the weights of these animals, taken from specimens were they were apparently at their largest....which is inconclusive, as there weights fluctuates over the months, and, as such, an average should be given, based upon specimens weighed throughout the months/year.  
 
grizzlies are no larger than lions.

also, kenny, according to packer, lions are resilant, and they are able to survive even the toughest of times. one of their main purposes for group living is for defense against rivals, and longer survival rates. 
 

All the information I gave you were of there average weight. The aformentioned sizes above that I posted is of their sizes they can achieve, but they do state their average weight in that data, all you have to do is read-and they are much larger than lions. I've studied bears for so long, and most of that knowledge is in my head from reading, so I'm giving you links by bear experts who know the animals better than both of us and THEY say that the Grizzly is larger by the sizes they've provided to us and I posted here.

Attila, you obviously know very little about bears. i too have spent years on this subject. and, the great bear almanac states the grizzly averages 490 lbs.....not those figures you mentioned. the weight of these animals depends upon food intake....which CAN be high in certain areas. 
 
here is another study upon the mass of grizzlies; 
 
http://www.bearbiology.com/fileadmin/tpl/Downloads/URSUS/Vol_5/Kingsley_Nagy_Russell_Vol_5.pdf 
 
...read the article...don`t just glaze over it. 
 

I'm sorry, but you were comploaining abou twilipedia and you are using brentlion as a scientific source for you!? He is not an authority on lions or bears, period-no more than you or I are, he looks up info on lions, thats what we all do with whatever we're interested in-so credibility is gone using that source.  
 
I gave you PROOF they go 40mph-they certainly ARE substantiated by animal biologists from different sources-why do you pick and choose what you believe whilst reading the data(accurate)that is provided by those whose profession it is to do so-if they get degrees on ursalines and graduate as a major in that degree, then proceed to compile data and conduct tests as they have done, then they KNOW more than you or I and who the hell can argue with them when they've studied in college then in the field with tests-THEY ARE THE PROFESSIONALS, and they gave you the data I provided to you-they say the bears go 40 mph, then the bears go 40 mph!! Its proof already since its been accepted as such by the scientific community-doesn't matter if you don't agree with it or not! I was always taught they go 35 mph, but apparently, these bears tested are faster!These same scientists also state the average size as being larger due to the weights they get. Also, the older the bear, the larger tehy become as well, so then you have to ask, at what age of bear will you use for an average. I know they have their pre-hibernation weight they sustain for 6 months and then the heavier spectrum of their weight-I'm not sure how to explain it any better-above it states the brown bear(a grizzly-look at the shoulder hump)is 500-900lbs. Thats their weight range, so 750 lbs would be in the middle of those weights if you want a yearly av. and that is larger than a lion or tiger-bear is larger. Every biologist agrees that the bear is the largest land carnivore on earth, so how can they be no larger than lions-because they are larger.

also, Attila, look at this document, upon the mean body mass of many different grizzly bear populations; 
 
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/journals/pnw_1999_hilderbrand001.pdf 
 
...notice how the majority were below 300 kg.

Here is an expert in the field of bears and author of a book on the same-which I provided above and you quoted, but rejected his expertise in regards to speed-i give you: 
 
This information is from an author/expert biologist on bears; Gary Brown in "The Great Bear Almanac"  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Polar Bear Brown Bear  
 
 
 
Average Weight of Mature Male 900-1,500 pounds 500-900 pounds  
 
 
 
Heaviest Recorded 2,210 pounds 2,500+ pounds  
 
 
 
Average Length of Mature Male 8-8.4 feet >7-10 feet  
 
Brown bears can be fast runners despite their size, capable of speeds of up to 64 km/h (40 mph). The largest subspecies are the Kodiak bear, Siberian Brown Bear, and the bears from coastal Russia and Alaska. It is not unusual for large male Kodiak Bears to stand over 3 m (9.8 ft) while on their hind legs, and to weigh up to 680 kg (1,500 lb).[14] The largest wild Kodiak bear on record weighed over 1,100 kilograms (2,400 lb).[Despite their size, some brown bears have been clocked at speeds in excess of 64 km/h (40 mph).[17]  
 

I read the data from the link you provided as you spent the time to research it(taking time to research animals is never time wasted!)I thank you for your time,(there may be some things you find that I previously wasn't privvy to-I love to learn everything about them and other animals) I don't wish to seem like a know-it-all, but I already knew that different locations of Grizzlys vary in size, just as it is with brown bears inland are smaller on ave than those in the coastal regions due to their exposure to more readily acquired food supplies-thats exactly the point I was eluding to earlier-that the only way the 2 species will likely meet, is in zoos where bears will just be enormous-just look at the over 2,000 lb specimens that already have been produced in zoos! So if they meet, it will be each animal at their larger weight for sure, do you accept this?

...also, Attila, i`m not using brentlion as a source, as I`M brentlion. and, i already seem your source from the great bera almanac...however, that very same book gave an average of 490 lbs, according many different ranges. 
 
...check this out; 
 
http://www.bowhunting.net/bearhunting.net/bear2.html 
 
...the high weights of the brown bear (and, i do have sources upon those animals as well) is based either upon a limited sampling, measuring of specific-aged males at a certain time of the year, asymptotic figures, ect, which is not conclusive. 
 
and, you did not show me proof bears go more than 40 mph...you merely mentioned a source which reported those figures. scientists occasionally interject estimates into their figures, and, unless this was specifically stated, it is unlikely they actually measured the speed of those animals. 
 
...i have MUCH knowledge upon these animals, having spent many years rifling through several reliable, scientific documents concerning these animals. 
 
..i even have data upon the organ and gland weights of these animals...lions and tigers as well, and many other animals. i also have data upon the muscle mass of a lion as well. 
 
and, while all grizzlies are brown bears, all brown bears aren`t grizzlies, as the name relates to certain specimens of north america, which sport the famous 'grisled' look. grizzlies are no larger than lions...and, i can show many more documents than i showed you so far.

Damon, you are the only one who disagrees with the fact that grizzlies are bigger than lions..and like you said, you are no expert so what do you know? 
 
 
 
Now, you're saying the average is 490 lbs, instead of 422? How credible! 
 
 
 
1500 lbs is a large specimen, not overlarge! I do not know what documents you have on bears, but there's gotta be some kind of false info to it, because brown bears average well over 240 kg! 
 
WELL OVER!! 
 
 
 
You obviously know very little about bears, you know quite a bit about lions though. 
 
 
 
And you can keep repeating about how you have many documents about the mass of bears, anybody can say anything. 
 
 
 
I know bears and you cannot tell me that I don't, nor Attila, he's actually got a greater knowledge of these animals than I do. 
 
 
 
...And how does one call himself an amateur and go on saying that he's studied these animals for most of his life, that doesn't even make sense! If you've studied a great deal under these animals and for a long time, wouldn't you be classified as an expert? 
 
 
 
Did YOU even graduate High School? 
 
Your credibility is SO LOW!! 
 
 
 
And you're a liar for saying that you don't like getting into arguments, you're arguing right now! It is not just a discussion, a discussion is a calm manner, and I've seen some hateful comments towards you, I might've made a few myself as well. You are NOT convincing anybody! 
 
 
 
Now, for any Brown Bear...Like Attila said "900-1,500 lbs" seems more like an accurate estimate, don't you think? 
 
 
 
I think it's time for you to just go on with life as it is, with people who disagree with each other or agree with each other, NO BIG DEAL!! 
 
 
 
Don't take what I'm saying so harshly man, you don't have to be an asshole to someone who just puts down what they have learned! 
 
This information doesn't just come out of nowhere, you gain this information from books, computer, TV, and when I say computer I don't mean looking up a website like I've been doing, I mean discussing this topic with an expert, and he/she will tell you what you need to know. 
 
 
 
Now I came to this website to put down my opinions, and merely express them.. but people like you that just want to carry on, can't let that happen! It's pathetic.

Kenny, i`m not trying to argue with you. it`s only a discussion. and, the great bear almanac, not me, gave an average of 490 lbs, for different grizzly populations, altogether. did you not see when i stated that?..... 
 
and, the documents i have were reported by credible scientists in the field. i can give you their names, credentials, ect. just because YOU say bears average 240 kg, doesn`t mean it is the case.  
 
and, i never said i studied bears for most of my life....i said, rather clearly, i`ve studied these animals for a long time. there`s always more to learn. however, your arguments are not good. and what does my level of education have to do with this discussion?... 
 
also, i never said i took what you said harsely.....when did i ever give you that idea?.... 
 
....most usually, i discuss topics with lion or tiger experts, but, the studies of which i quoted came from experts in the field, not some website that could have been created by anyone, or some inclusive data shown on a study which may not have mentioned any referrences.

Damon..You are guilty of not reading through people's posts clearly....I said WELL OVER 240 kg, not about 240! 
 
 
 
And you didn't say that you took my comments so harshly, I just figured you do, because you always try to prove me wrong, ALL THE TIME!! It's really, really pathetic! 
 
 
 
Your arguments suck! Because you repeat the same thing! You robot!

And I thought you said it was just a discussion, jackass!!

LOL!!! You got that average from 65 bears in Yellowstone National Park! Damon, you're so dumb! 
 
 
 
65 Bears out of thousands is not enough to gather the accurate data to prove the mean weight of these animals. 
 
 
 
65 in Yellowstone, that is just hilarious!! 
 
 
 
The average WILD grizzly bear is larger than 192 kg, lol. And you obviously know very little about bears, the brown bear, not just the grizzly, is a large animal of an average 900-1500 lbs, not an overlarge specimen! An overlarge brown bear would be a ton or so, not an average 900-1500, and you'd have to be MAD to say that 750 lbs is an overlarge specimen, that is just outright stupid!! That is a small specimen there! 
 
 
 
And what does your level of education have to do, well...the the more educated one is, the more he knows, because that's what being educated is about Damon....good god you're dumb! 
 
 
 
How old are you exactly, and what is it that you do? I'm just curious, it's not part of the discussion.

If those averages were taken from Yellowstone, they are going to be smaller bears-why not use teh bears in Alaska for an average? Yellowstone is among the smaller sizes of Grizzly's-even in Washington state they are bigger. They are smaller than average from other locations-depends on where yoiu want your average taken, but there are larger bears in WA and even larger in AK.

kenny, you too, repeat the same senetences several times. but, here is a record of a lion defeating a polar bear; 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/lionkillspolarbear-2.jpg 
 
...and, yes, i do try to prove you wrong, as i do not agree with most of what you are saying, as you actual studies mention an average of WELL OVER 240 kg for grizzlies. if so, show the study, and mention the expert involved in weighing these specimens.

kenny, it is just a discussion. unlike you, i don`t curse at other posters i disagree with, nor do i take it too personally.

Kenny, i know a great deal about bears, both brown and grizzlies. All grizzly bears are brown bears, but not all brown bears are grizzlies. grizzlies have that grayish, grizzled look, and are indigenoous to certain areas of northern america. 
 
here`s a document which gives an average of 389 kg, for 5 adult male brown bears; 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/sizeofbrownbears.jpg 
 
...however, the above mentioned figures are too limited (sampling too low, only certain age group measured, ect). but, also, note the other figures upon the weight of these animals.  
 
and, i know what being educated is. but, what does school have to do with my education?.....you don`t need school to know you are smart. also, i know precisely where the weight of those 65 bears was mentioned at....and indeed, it was of yellowstone bears. but, unlike most other studies, the sampling is particularly high, and so conclusive. likewise, it is based upon specimens weighed THROUGHOUT the year, rather than at a specimen point in time. 
 
grizzlies are no larger than lions. 
 
and, i`m 23 (be 24 august 2nd) and i usually work with my step father, doing hauling/construction work.

Attila, you want averages for bears of alaska?...okay...here it is; 
 
http://www.us.national-parks.net/grizzlybear.pdf 
 
...in fact, the above mentioned documents mention the weights of several different populations of brown bears, and the MAJORITY, except one population (and, even then, the figures were likely asymptotic, at best) were under 300 kg.

The sampling of those species wasn't that high Damon, 65 bears is not even 1/8 of the population, in YELLOWSTONE! 
 
 
 
And that 389 kg was for brown bears, is that including the coastal brown bears of Alaska? Those are the largest subspecies of brown bears. 
 
 
 
And I think it's nice for everybody to know who they're talking to, my name is Kenneth Potter, I'm 20 and I do the same thing you do, I live in Texas so that probably explains my aggression towards other posters, sorry for that lol.

Kenny, a sampling of 65 specimens is indeed a high figure, regardless of the amount of bears in that area, especially when considering an average weight, as majority are likely to be near the average.  
 
and, the 389 kg figure was for 5 male bears over 9 years of age, from alaska....hardly a conclusive figure, as they were not measured throughout the year, but at a specific time, as well as the fact they were all at an age in which they are nearly at their largest.  
 
the sampling is just too limited, and so the data inconclusive.

also, my whole name is damon ransom, and i live in d.c. and, no need for apologies, it doesn`t bother me.

This is for you Kenny and Damon on Bart the Grizzly Bear in his honor. 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAOc3mKWzyo 
 
Bart is a Grizzly bear(hump on shoulders)stood 9'6 and weighed 1,800 lbs. I didn't know this, but he also played in "the great outdoors" and that movie "the edge" Kenny you told me he was in-Bart brought home 1 million dollars for his part in the movie, and his handler and owner Doug Sues then started the Vital Ground Foundation with those proceeds plus his lifes-savings besides that to purchase Grizzly-safe land in Montana. If you have any questions regarding Grizzly's, here is a way to contact an expert(I would suggest NOT asking him about "what if" questions, like fighting lions and such)who can tell you about their sizes and lives throughout the year: contact@bartthebear.com or  
 
Doug Sues 
 
Phone: (435) 654.3176 
 
Fax: (435) 654.4747

Attila, i know all about bart. but, why mention it?.....he was an abnormally large bear.....one specimen of large size doesn`t mean the occurrence of such large specimens us usual. most are usually smaller. for example, one bear on the program explorer, where they measured grizzly bear strength, weighed only 600 lbs, though he was an adult male.

Yes, I know Bart was large for a Grizzly,this is to honor his memory. Yeah, I've seen that one and most on bears, like the one where this guy is in a reinforced clear epoxy cube and observes feeding behaviors unobstructed with polar and grizzly bears, then lions. The polar bear really has him worried for his life because he thought it just might be able to break it and it took extreme interest in him(there were holes about 3" in diameter drilled all away around for air)trying to rip into the small holes to get at the biologist. 
 
Here is a movie which you may not have seen with a lion named Major in it with Michael Douglas, Jodie foster as a youngster and a Danny partridge-looking kid, movie's called "Napolean and Samantha"

This is not an evenly matched fight. 
The lion is much tougher and more well-equipped to win a fight than the bear is.  
Tigers, which are of similar size to lions and tougher because they regularly fight for territory, often prey on brown bears, which are larger than blacks. 
If a bear sees a lion, he had better run.

i'll start with some facts. 
 
 
 
male grizzly bears weigh on average 650 - 800 pounds IN THE WILD. They can reach 9 foot but generally length wise they are usually 8 
 
 
 
male lions weigh on average 500 - 600 pounds. They are 4 foot high off the ground and can reach up to 12 feet long but generally tend to be 11 feet. 
 
 
 
The grizzly has thick skin, a huge muscle mass, a big weight advantage, and power on it's side. 
 
 
 
An african lion has a thick protective mane, sharp claws, a massive jaw power, and tons of fighting experience on it's side. 
 
 
 
a lion is faster and more agile than a bear. and a lion is more intimidating also (roars, and the mane). also a lion is much more agressive. 
 
 
 
in short i think a lion would win. They are much more quicker and agile than a bear... and with big opponents lions will always go for the throat... Bear fans argue than a bears protective skin will stop this from happening but what they don't realise is that when a lion is going for a throat grip when hunting to close off a bulls wind pipe they use 20% of the power their jaw is capable of. 
 
 
 
I actually think that the fight is 60/40 in the lions favour because they wil almost always dance around looking for a weak spot in their opponent and box with their paws a few times then go in for the kill... this is due to the big fighting experience they get from living in the savahna. and i don't think a bear (who usually stands on it's hind legs) will be able to stop a lion who's going for it's throat. 
 
 
 
yes a bear is extreamly powerful but i hate when people say something so stupid such as 'a bear can swat a lion away like a fly' you seriously underestimate a lion, it's a big powerful agressive cat NOTHING can SWAT a lion away.

fucking NERDS! 
 
 
 
Everybody here is retarded! If you really want to know which animal would win, just match their strengths and weaknesses together! 
 
 
 
The Black Bear would lose. Now if you want to talk about a lion and a kodiak bear fight, the bear would own the lion anyday! 
 
 
 
Lions are very strong. I've seen them female lions tackle buffaloes before! And I've seen lions fight other predators, and they KNOW HOW TO FIGHT! 
 
 
 
But Kodiak Bears are fucking monsters, they are huge! And they've got the nastiest attitudes ever!! If you take a look at a bear's claws, they're over 4 inches long!! And they're pretty fast for their size too!! 
 
 
 
And oliver....Elephants swat the biggest lions away everyday. Make them their bitches. So you're dead ass wrong about "NOTHING can swat a lion away" This happens all the time.

Alright guys, I'm an expert. 
 
 
 
African Lions average 7 feet in length (You're all overestimating the size of these magnificent animals), males generally average 400 lbs in weight, and females generally average 275 lbs. Lions can run at a speed of over 35 mph. 
 
 
 
Now, Brown Bears (or to be more specific, Grizzlies) average 500-650 lbs, during the springtime, and they may even average 1000 lbs during the winter, Grizzlies measure up to 9 feet in length, but only average 6 or 7 feet. And they can run at speeds ranging from 25-30 mph. Though some smaller bears have been clocked at 35 mph. 
 
 
 
Now, I don't like to talk about animal fights, but If you all really want to know the answer, it would be the bear. 
 
 
 
Evolution took it's course after Arctodus Simus and Panthera Leo went extinct. Arctodus Simus was the Short-Faced Bear, and these animals generally won a confrontation with an American Lion! 
 
 
 
That's why there are Bears in America rather than Lions. This is the TRUTH!!!!! 
 
 
 
Now don't you DARE criticize me or I will come to your house and kill you! JK, I have a really sick sense of humour.

That one stupid damon sombitch was here too huh? And I see that he was commenting on how Grizzly Bears are no bigger than lions.....damn, this guy really loves lions don't he? But no damon, they're not the same size, bears are bigger. Ok? You see more 800-1000 lb grizzly bears than you do 400 lb grizzlies! U see alot more black bears that size!

Brad, quit bein' an ass! lol jk man how's it going? 
 
 
 
Who in the world puts down that bullshit, and calls themselves an expert? It's quite funny lol! 
 
 
 
 
 
"Now don't you DARE criticize me or I will come to your house and kill you! JK, I have a really sick sense of humour." 
 
 
 
LOLOLOLOLOL.......no shit! lol.

that bear would be OWNED. ive seen videos of housecats chasing away black bears. seriously? a black bear agaisnt a lion? its no match. lion would rip the throat out. the bear would be done.

oh, and by the way. can people stop talking about Grizzlys? who cares about them. im an animal lover of almost all animals and i hate every bear except the black bear. and size doesnt matter over skill. where a bear would stand up and try to look big a lion will jump and tear out the throat.

Thats completely incorrect, Kerrie-if a lion would try that, they would get their head knocked off by the bear. BTW, lions used ot live in north America, but bears wiped them out thousands of years ago, so your theory is fantasy-reality shows bears killed them off and took over north America as the dominant predators. Who cares if you hate bears, it doesn't change a thing such as reality.

Attila, a bear isn`t capable of knocking a lion`s head off. And, lions never lived in north america (at least, there is no direct evidence) and bears certainly wouldn`t have driven them out, as theyb live in groups and bears would find it very difficult. Likewise, i have a few records of lions defeating/killing brown bears and polar bears.

Actually damon, lions did in fact live in North America, this species was called Panthera, or American Lion during the pleistocene era, that's what Attila is talking about, so you're wrong. 
 
 
 
And it was just an exaggeration when he said the bear would knock the lion's head off, don't make a big deal about it dude!

BTW damon, why are you still arguing about this? Let us have our own opinions okay! And it is a FACT, that lions lived in North America, and this show called Jurassic Fight Club aired on the history channel, and it was a fight between an American Lion and a Short Faced Bear, and the bear won. Then the scientists on the show, during the aftermath of the fight, said that bears ARE the ultimate land carnivores on earth, you can not tell me another story, lions are cool yeah, but Bears are just the winners of this lion-bear competition, quit acting like a baby! Babies sit there and argue with their parents about stuff they think is true, when in fact they're wrong because they're babies! That is exactly how you act! END OF DISCUSSION!!! And I saw how you started losing your temper on that Lion vs Tiger forum hehehe..........I thought you said you didn't take comments too seriously!

Kenny, the american lion is not the same as todays african lion, nor have they evolved from these animals. They probably have a similar build/features, but, that`s as far as it goes. and, i wasn`t making a big deal out of that comment about the grizzly knocking a lion`s head off......just correcting it....though i think he was serious.

Kenny, when have i 'acted like a baby?'. Also, the american lion is not the same as the african lion....they just happen to be similar in build....kinda like hyenas are to dogs. 
 
and, i don`t argue with my parents. Why would i do that?.....and, what the hell does that have to do with this discussion?..... 
 
and, an american lion would probably defeat the short faced bear...though, as i know little about these animals, i wouldn`t bet on it. However, they are not the same as todays lions, nor are short faced bears the same as today`s bears, so, that is a poor comparison. Not to mention a 'simulation' of an actual fight is not proof that the outcome will happen in that manner. 
 
i have records of lion`s defeating both grizzly`s and polar bears.

actually, there are lions in North America. its the mountain lion. but mega lions once lived in North America with the short faced bear, i believe it was called. they both are gone.

Kenny, you do realize that fight was virtual. and virtual is fake. i saw a virtual fight of a gorilla and leopard. and the gorilla karate chopped the leopard. you have to think skill and common sense for fights. like this: wolf vs. asian lion and the asian lion would win. its about three or four times the size of the wolf and has better skill. now i want no comments saying "oh well blah blah blah and the wolf would win because blah blah blah" because you know your wrong. and im not answering any negative comments to this because that just means you are mad because you are wrong.

Damon man! 
 
"Kenny, when have i 'acted like a baby?" 
 
All THE DAMN TIME!! 
 
 
 
And I didn't say you argue with your parents you ignorant fuck! I was comparing you to a baby, babies argue with their parents just like how YOU argue with US! 
 
 
 
And Danielle, was I talking to you? I didn't think so. And so what if it's fake, the scientists on the show said that the bear would own the lion, and in history, the short faced bear killed the american lion in every confrontation. I'm not mad, i'm just tired of repeating myself! This damon idiot doesn't know when he's wrong and likes to fuck with everybody. Get a NORMAL life damon! 
 
 
 
And danielle, I don't think a wolf could kill a lion.

Kenny, i know you didn`t say i argued with my parents, but, you gave a poor excuse in response to that. I don`t argue, merely, on occassion, post my disagreement with some of the posters here. After all, that`s usually the point of a blog.....to blog about stuff...in this case, lion vs american black bear. 
 
And, the animal face-off website is scarcely the same as the actual show, as the conclusions one or more experts may come up with, which is most usually how they determine the results of some of the hypothetical confrontations, may not be how it comes to play in the show. 
 
And, i do indeed know when i`m wrong.....i have no problem admitting when i`m wrong.....just don`t think i`m wrong, in this case, and indeed i have the studies to support my arguments, not merely an opinion. 
 
And, most of the time, the points i argue may not be my personal opinion, but based upon the studies i`ve come across, instead.

But why would you do that? Why would you totally ignore your own opinions for that BULLSHIT!! That doesn't make sense! That one source you stated, that a grizzly is of 192 kg made me laugh, those scientists must be retarded! 
 
 
 
And Damon...merely, on occasion my ass! It's all the time buddy. 
 
 
 
Why would you discuss something for a long time, when it is NOT even your personal opinion? makes little sense, why post here at all? 
 
 
 
I would get tired of doing what you're doing, if nobody buys my bullshit, I wouldn't try to convince them, I just flat out tell them they're wrong, and yes, I will answer to comments directed towards me, because they are TOWARDS ME!!!

Kenny, that study you are referring to, in which it was stated the grizzlies averaged 192 kg, was based upon actual studies in the field, where those grizzlies were actually weighed (throughout the year) and, the average weight was 192 kg. 
 
And, i said that sometimes when i quote a statement in which a particular study may conclude, may not be my personal opinion. I`d rather i have a conclusive study to confirm my statements, than to rely upon my opinion alone.....as, an opinion is just that, an opinion, and i may be wrong.

Black bears are very shy animals and wud most likely run from a lion, cuz these bears are likely to run from dogs too. but if the bear was not to run it mite put up a good fight and mite have a chance to win against the lion. i'll give it a 3/10-5/10 with a full grown male lion.but then again the bear is bigger and lions arent used to fighting any other cornivour thats bigger than it self so if the bear wud stand up for a fite it mite put up a gud one but most likely it wud run away.

Vic...you`re wrong. For starters, black bears aren`t bigger than lions...as the males average 90 - 145 kg. Lions average 190 kg. Evene grizzlies, according to actual studies in the field, average from 190 - 222 kg.....certainly within the range of the lion. I also have a few records of lions defeating brown bears, and even a polar bear.

I know black bears arent bigger than lions i was jus refering to the size used by the the guy who post the figth. and i said the bear wud run away. also the only way a lion wud win a polar or a brown bear is unless the bear was really old or really young or was seriously wounded. and where do u get that crap about lion and grizzlies are the same size. wat r u retarded. the grizzlies mite be the same size in the summer but thats only the summer what about the winter wen it puts on more pounds?

Vic, i have actual records of the body mass of grizzlies, measured, not merely during summer, but throughout the year; 
 
http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/39/master/1/ 
 
The weight of bears varies much during the months, and, studies of the weight of these animals, at a specific time of the year would give either inflated or decreased figures. Likewise, the weights of age specific bears is not reliable, as bears continue to gain weight even after adulthood......a much better comparison would be of bears measured throughout the year, aged from young adults to old specimens. 
 
And, here are those records of lions defeating those bears; 
 
http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/40/master/1/ 

K u answered my ques but how old were the bears and why wasn't there a specific wt for each animal, like i said the bears were either really old aged or they were just kids.

Vic....the document shows the bears were 5+ and up to at least 13 years of age. The study indicated that grizzlies reach approximately 95% of the adult mass after the age of 5 years, so, they used specimens above this age.  
 
And, in one of the documents, the age of the bears, as well as the corresponding weights is mentioned. The age was shown in one of the documents, on the left-hand side.

Vix, did you seriously call Damon retarded when you spell like a three year old?

*Vic

Well Carly I type every fast so the chances of me typing a wrong letter is high, but u are one to talk when my name is Vic and spell Vix you cant spell a 3 letter word you stupid shit head but then y wud i want to argue with a kid who needs to go outside and make real friends and stop playing with teddy bears.

Don't take it personal kid

stupid child! your probably eleven! its called a typo. and i fixed it. you need to fix your whole paragraph. why dont you go giggle to your friends how you told off someone older, more mature, and more knowlegable than you. this is the last time im replying. stupid child....

What are you Carly, Damons bitch because as I recall I was calling Damon a retard and not you and then out of the blues you jump up and defend him when he didn't even pay attention to my Statement about him. Look if you want to become his lover and you can't don't put your anger towards me and like I said get some real friends and stop playing with those teddy bears of yours. By the way at least I have real friends to giggle with and not teddy bears.

Vic, don't fucking talk to her like that bro, just because you probably don't have a gf doesn't mean you gotta act like a dick towards other posters, preferrably female ones! 
 
 
 
And Carly, you didn't have to stick up for Damon, if Damon doesn't answer it simply means he doesn't care, even though I will argue and cuss damon out, me and him, from what I believe, have no hard feelings between us, Damon is a cool guy, he just happens to piss me off every now and then. 
 
 
 
2 Damon: You can stop now dude, you've half-ass convinced me, believe it or not! So....you can stop.

Kenny I didn't know Carly was a girl I have a young cousin who is a boy named Carly so I figured more of less Carly here was a boy too, my mistake and I don't have a gf I have a wife thank you every much.

no Vic, im not his "bitch". and i dont play with teddy bears, can you get over that? -_- and i didnt know you all were friends here....

Kenny no offense but that really is my business and Carly if I'd known you were a girl my reply would have been" this is a blog about animal fight and I didn't feel it was necessary to spell the words correctly " I'm apologizing for what I said early, It doesn't really matter if you forgive me or not scince we are strangers but that really was my bad.

Vic i realy dont care anymore. but what does it matter if im male or female? i dont understand why everyone underestimates females... unless you live in places like Irag, Pakistan, ect.

The lion would totally kill the the black bear but if it were a brown bear or a polar bear the lion doesn't stand a rats ass of a chance.

well, alu, there are records of lions killing brown bears, and even polar bears.....so, that rat`s ass of a chance must be running a little short.

Damon no animal wins a fight all the time(unless it was a full grown elephant vs a full grown lion which is just cruel and the lion is a suicidal) 
 
Just a question out of a 100 fight how many times to you think a lion would win if it were to fight a polar/brown bear, and remember a bear can kill a moose with a perfect blow to the back you said so yourself. 
 
 
 
But a single lion cannot kill any healhty animal lager than a zebra, even though I have seen vedios on youtube where single lions attack adult buffalos but did not kill it, and if there was a kill the actual killing was not shown but in the end you always see other pride members. 
 
 
 
Not to mention a moose is bigger than both lions and zebras on average.

Alu, there are records of lions killing anmals much larger than zebra...in fact, they regularly hunt buffalo, in some areas, and, they tackle these specimens whether alone, or in groups. Likewise, guggisberg mentions a case where a lion killed an adult giraffe with the greatest of ease. 
 
 
 
 
 
And, in the documentary, relentless enemies, a lioness was shown taking down an adult buffalo cow. I also never stated the lion would win all the time, nor was that my argument. Merely, i believe the lion, in a fight with either a grizzly, or polar bear, would be the more consistant winner. Not to mention, grizzlies are no larger than lions (according to most records) as well as the fact, proportionately (external measurements only) polar bears are no larger either. of course, polar bears can, and do grow larger than lions. But, this is based upon food intake, which in these bears is of a particularly rich diet. 
 
 
 
Out of 100 fights, the lion would defeat a grizzly about 80 - 90 times, perhaps higher.....as lions have been shown to have the greater 'instantaneous' outburst of energy, of any animal of comparable size, including the grizzly. They also are the more combative of the two. the lion would, on most occasions, be the usual victor, unless the bear should outweigh the lion by a significant amount....then, the lion is most likely to lose.

If the two animals were of the same size and weight, I think the lion may be able to defeat the black bear. The preferred fighting method of black bears is to rain swift and well-aimed blows at the opponent (preferably at the head), rather than to bite, as their jaws are not particularly formidable in comparison with grizzlies or big cats. They do bite, but this is not their most effective weapon. Their relative muscle mass is smaller than that of a grizzly, because they are tree-climbers, rather than diggers. For the same reason, their claws are not very long but very sharp. Still, they can use their paws in more ways than lions. Lions use their paws either to shock, stun and deter an opponent, or to grab and hold it, or to cause blood loss by their slashing claws. Black bears know all that (though they may do some of it less often), but their paws are also strong enough to lift and throw a weighty opponent, something that no lion would ever do. Both lions and black bears kick with their hind legs during wrestling to break the hold of the opponent. The lion's claws would probably cause more serious injuries than the bear's, but the bear's paws are stronger. The lion has an advantage in speed and maneuverability, it would be probably able to maneuver around the bear and inflicting multiple injuries on it without enabling the bear to get a hold, but the bear would be also able to swat it at least a few times. Still, the lion's jaws are more formidable and more specialized for killing big animals than a black bear's. The lion may also increase its chances by attacking one or other hind leg of the bear to reduce its maneuverability even further. This is what male lions sometimes do if they fight with each other. My two cats do a lot of play-fighting, and the more combative one devised a very effective method to overcome the other's defense. First, she launches an attack and rolls the other, whereupon the attacked one, laying on her back, starts furiously kicking and slashing with all her four feet to prevent the attacker from biting her neck, chest or belly. Then the aggressor:), instead of trying to attack her soft but well-protected underside, simply bites one of her hind legs, which the other, laying on her back, cannot easily prevent. When the leg is bitten, you hear an indignant shriek, and victory is pronounced for the aggressor.:)

Alu, i have seen a black panther take down two, i believe, wilderbeast or buffalo. somthing of that sort, i could not tell at the moment. but that was in a meer ten mintutes. if a black panther can do that, at about 200-250 pounds. what do you think an African Lion could do? im not starting a fight or backing up Damon, as i see some people who agree with him are accused of so. im just saying, your estimate is off.

Nina a leopard trying to take down an adult buffalo is very very suicidal. 
 
 
 
Buffalos have been known to kill lions without a second thought.Just Imaging what they could do to a leopard. 
 
I've seen a female leopard take down two wilderbease only seconds after she killed the first one but they were calves, and that same leopard a few days before was stalking the annual wilderbease herd but gave away her position when she noticed there were no calves to be found. 
 
 
 
Notice i said healhty meaning I do beleive single lions can take down buffalo if a tiger can take down a guar on its own why can't a lion do the same to a buffalo but not healhty ones. 
 
 
 
And Doman you are the only one I hear saying that lions,tigers Bengal/Siberian and Polar/brown bears are the same size but they are not and don't start talking about those documents you have, For I connot take what one person says and use it. Like you said if the bears are bigger which they are they would beat the lion most of the time. I'll give them 91 out of a 100 fights over the lion. 
 
 
 
And I've also seen giraffes run from leopards, a giraffe may have a kick than can crush a lion's skull but it also kicks backwards making it hard to see if it will hit the lion, so a giraffe cannot defend it self as well as buffalos can even though buffalos rely most of the time on its herd. 
 
 
 
And to those documents you have about the bear's size, how old are they?

I said Black Panther, NOT Leopard. there is a diffrence. Scientist say alot of things that doesnt mean you always have to believe them. like i dont believe when i die im going to rott into the ground and im sure you dont etheir. leopards are much smaller. even though i do admit there are black leopards, jaguars, tigers, ect. and do not accuse me of being stupid for thinking they are diffrent or call me "retarded" or anything. just because i dont believe what everyone tells me and do my own work doesnt mean im "stupid".

Nina when did I ever call you stupid ro even mention it? 
 
 
 
When you said "wilderbeast or buffalo" I only thought you meant a black leopard since black jaguars don't live where wilderbeast and buffalos do. 
 
 
 
And why are you over reacting?

oh. and im not. i have been called stupid and retarded for it many times by people who think theyre the shit because they believe every word a scientist says. haha sorry if we're not allowed to say that.

Nina, i agree with your last post completely....i cannot tell you how many times i was called qstupid because of a particular statement i made, that most scientists do not agree with, regardless of the points i made in proof of such. 
 
 
 
Also, alu, i never said polar bears were the same size of lions and tigers, merely stated that, proportionately (size excluding weight, or the external measurements) is virtual;ly equal, meaning that, with similar levels of food intake, they may be of equal weight. But, in the wild, polar bears have a particularly rich diet, and this explains their larger mass. 
 
 
 
As for grizzlies, they are no larger than lions....in most studies, they average from 190 - 222 kg.....these are from accurate studies, and certainly within the range of the lion. 
 
 
 
Now, a bigger bear may very well be able to defeat a lion...but, how much bigger?....and, indeed, how fair would that be?.....i doubt the bear would win 91 fights out of 100....simply because the big cats can excute a more effective immediate attack....not to mention they are more agile, and i have a few records of lions defeating brown bears, and even polar bears.

Well Damon in all my post here I have never once mention a grizzly bear I said brown bears in other words Russian bears and I know those two records you have but like I said the lion will only win 9/100 times when fighting a brown/polar bear. 
 
 
 
How much bigger you ask well a Brown bear can wt any where between 100-680kg and a lion 150-227kg and the polar bears 352-680kg. Now do the math. 
 

And I ask again how old are those docoments?

alu, grizzlies are brown bears, and, the average weight is between 192 - 200 kg. And, a lion can weigh upwards of 313 kg in the wild, and possibly much more, considering captive specimens have reached 826 lbs, and another 930 lbs. 
 
 
 
few brown bears get up to 680 kg...and, it so, that is/was likely the largest on record. But, i am commenting on average sized specimens, not overlarge individuals. A lion would win 9 out of 10 times.

also, those studies are less than 20 years old. What studies do you possess in proof of your claims?.... 
 
 
 
and, i`m not talking about a source from some website.......unless actual records are being referenced. Most websites are not cnstructed by scientists, and most tend to revolve around estimates.

lol i knw y they call u a retard danom its bcuz u are! did tht evr occur 2 u?

Seriously damon u r a fucked up retard to even believe your own coment cuz wat u said only comes out of a very gay ass stupid nerd shit head only a hard core lion fan boy wit teddy bears and dont have a gf will believ tht shit u jus post.

Yes Damon a gizzly is no more than a subspecies of brown bear but what do people usually call the Russian bears. Want an answer= Brown bears. 
 
 
 
What can I say Damon I agree with James even though I would never put that way and lions rearly ever reach that size of well over 400 bls.  
 
 
 
Lion vs brown/polar bear 91/100 goes to the bears.

I don't get you Damon you said that a bear can kill a moose with a good blow to the back. 
 
 
 
Now mooses are bigger and taller than lions and can also indure more pain than lion so how is it that you post the lion would win 9 out of 10 time against the bear. 
 
 
 
Surly if a bear can kill a mooose with a single blow it must can do the same thing with a lion. Now if it had been more than one lion the bear would have lost but not before dealing injures to the lions first.

Thank you Zeroman. I believe Rual Damon! you are a vey serious lion fan.

Alu, lions average 190 kg, or 420 lbs......i have several records of lions close to, or above 250 kg......and, even one of a 313 kg specimen. So, they can, and do, grow large. 
 
and james....don`t really care what you think of me.....this is just a discussion, after all...you`re taking it too seriously. Do you think when i make a statement i`m just supporting an opinion?...i have the data to back it up.

Zeroman, i never said grizzly could kill a moose with a single blow to the back of the head....where did i say that?.....i may have made a response to another poster`s post, stating it would take a near perfect strike from a grizzly to shatter the skull of a moose.....but then again, those are few and far between. 
 
A grizzly is no more capable of killing an animal than a lion is.......a lion has been known to take a 2 year old cow in it`s mouth, to jump over an 8 ft high fence.  
 
i also have records of lions defeating both brown bears, and polar bears.....wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute!....bears are supposed to win though, right?.....

Grizzly's are twice the size of a lion. My best friend in Wa has a friend I met and he's got a grizzly over 900 lbs-lions are not and never will be that big-and thats half the size of Bart teh Bear who was a huge Grizzly who weighed 1,800 lbs. Thats not the norm, but that size CAN be attained with age and regular food source available, now there's never been any natural big cat(not ligers, tiglons, etc-those are man-caused started in Germany)to reach those huge proportions as a Grizzly, therefore they ARE larger, and Grizzly's HAVE killed moose(who are NO joke)with one blow, not to the head to bash its skull, but rather breaking the animal's neck. Bears are the kings of the land carnivores, plain and simple-big cats are very cool worthwhile and awesome creatures, but the bear really is king although all animals are great should be respected and treated as such and not made to fight for the amusement of mankind. The polar bear may already become extinct in your childrens lifetime or even yours, same with the tiger. I know some people on here really love their type of animal, and thats GREAT, but lets not make them into something they're not-there's no way you can HONESTLY believe a lion(not even the biggest of the big cats-the tiger has that distinction)is as big as a Grizzly when they regularly are 850-900 lbs in the wild and larger in captivity, although when they get done hibernating, they are around 600 lbs and starving and looking to put weight they lost during the hibernation back on. We've been over this before, Damon, and you cannot use their starving weight after hibernating as their average weight-to do so would be to handicap it and therefore you must do so for the lion as well. Lions are magnificent, but they do not match up size-wise to a Grizzly, or Polar bear. There is a Polar bear in a zoo who is 2,200 lbs and in New Jersey a Kodiak bear(subspecies of Brown bear found in the coastal region of Kodiak island AK)who weighs 2400 lbs. Both those are examples of over a ton of carnivore, a lion would not risk a fight with one, but would run away. It's also never seen this type animal and would trepeditious and be extremely cautious around a bear, watching it but keeping out of its range. I've also studied lion behavior because I really like Hyena's and they and lions are connected in a circle that by learning about one, you learn about the other, so closely are they connected, albeit by the hatred they have for each other, but respect is definately shared. Grizzly's are larger, stronger and are underestimated by you in their speed, both running(35-40 mph) and their striking speed. Lions are great, but they ARE smaller than are Grizzly's, and Polar bears-thats just animal biology and science facts-and common sense-when you go to the zoo, size comparison them and then you will see there is a big difference in size. 
 
ATTILA

damon, those documents are 20 years old or less? What do the most recent ones say excluding the past 10 or so years? 
 
 
 
And not many people go around posting shit that has already been stated by some jackass scientist who doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about! Grizzly Bears can kill lions at least 7 or 8 times out of 10, you're saying what that fucking game off of animal face off says, it states that a lion will win 9 out of 10 times, and that show is completely biased, not once did the tiger actually win a fight on that show! 
 
 
 
Damon, quit acting like a scumbag! Nobody cares about what you post you fucking freak!! Everybody in the whole, wide world knows for a fact that brown bears, on average, are larger than lions, and nobody is gonna believe you, what's the point of posting here when nobody believes what you have to say, and then out of the fucking blue you try to convince them on something they know is NOT correct, you piece of shit!!!! 
 
 
 
Go crawl off in a dark hole somewhere and die, I tried to be nice to you but you won't let that happen, so now i'm gonna fuck with you forever! 
 
 
 
DAMON RANSOM IS A LIAR, A DECEIVER, AND HE IS PROBABLY GAY!!

You know what everybody......Fuck it! I don't understand why all of yall want to sit here and waste your precious lives away arguing with this denying-everything that is true freak! He thinks he knows everything about these animals, and when you write something to him that basically makes him look stupid, and I know it does, he responds back but twists the info that you put and turns it into something else, and he will snap at you if you do the same thing back to him, he is a back-stabbing immature little bitch! Damon, if you post something towards me that i've already read, I will track you down and murder you! AND I WILL!! Don't think i'm kidding! I can be real hateful, especially towards lying ass faggets that think they know everything, just like you :)

Hey Kenny, 
 
may you rather comment on what I wrote about lions and black bears? It is not because it is so particularly important but at least I did not insult anyone, and it may be better for all of us not to fight each other as viciously as an enraged lion and bear would do. But even they do not call each other gay:))

Thank you Attila, and to you Damon you take this more seriously than any one here. 
 
You are the only one that has something to say against anyone that say the lion will lose. 
 
 
 
If you had not taken it seriously then you wouldn't be posting a statement almost every day. 
 
 
 
How can an intelligent person such as yourself even say something like that? 
 
You are clearly just a bais lion fan and nothing more. 
 
You are clearly not worth having a discussion with because you will never learn. 
 
You might as well just say that a lion can kill any animal regardless of size with little efort. 
 
We get it Damon the lion is very precious to you but that does not make it the ultimate carnivore. 
 
I like tigers alot but even I can admit that Siberian tigers would lose most of the time if it was to fight a brown bear head on. 
 
I'm also a dog/canine person, but I can also admit that a lone wolf does not stand a chance when it is fighting a puma. 
 
You are just a very bias lion fan nothing more and certainly nothing less. 
 
In the land carnivore list the lion will always come third after the tiger and the bear. 
 
And where felines are concerned the lion is second place and will remain second place if hopefully tigers do not become extinct in the near or far future. 
 
Lion vs polar/brown bear 91/100 goes to the bears.

Well said Alu.

"You are clearly not worth having a discussion with because you will never learn."  
 
Nicely put Alu.

"kenny, eve in wildlife documentaries....all of the action is not always shown. however, the discussion was that a grizzly could kill a MOOSE, not an elk, with one blow. no one has proved that....not that i doubt it can happen. it could....however, it`s so rare.....likewise, the strike must be nearly perfect to be pulled off." 
 
 
 
yes damon you wrote this on the lion vs tiger blog so you know what that makes you  
 
 
 
A LIAR!  
 

Hey Alu, 
 
I am not exactly a lion fan, nor am I a black bear fan either. (BTW, my favorite big cats are leopards and jaguars.) This is why I tried to investigate the chances of both sides as objectively as possible. In a grizzly-lion fight, I consider the grizzly a somewhat more likely winner than the lion (even if its weight advantage is relatively inconsiderable), because grizzlies are much stronger built than black bears, but I do think that a lion may be able to defeat a black bear even in a frontal confrontation.

Well Balazs 
 
 
 
It's just that in India Tigers whether male or female tend to prey on bear (Sloth or Black)though not frequently, there was a case of a young tigress chasing an adult male black bear into a river. 
 
But not becuase the tiger prey on the bears that means it can't win in an head on match, most of the frontal interaction I see between tigers and bears are usually a tigress and the bear gets chased away. 
 
The lion will see the bear as a challenger but the tiger might only consider it as prey. Even though I give the win to the lion it's mainly only because a tigress is smaller than a male lion and if she can do it a male lion might have the chance to win mostly over the black bear. Not to mention size can play a key role in the fight. 
 
3/10 I will give to the black bear 
 
 
 
 
 
I'm mostly love dogs, they tend to love thier masters more than themselves. 
 
 
 
And I like tiger because they always seem to have a love affair with water, which most cats tend to aviod.

Kenny, 20 years, and perhaps a little more, is not a significant time frame......that is fairly recent data. Here is one such document; 
 
http://www.bearbiology.com/fileadmin/tpl/Downloads/URSUS/Vol_4/Glenn_Vol_4.pdf 
 
And, it does not matter whether people believe me or not.....those bears were actually measured, and i supplied the data, and presented the results. They are reliable.  
 
and, i`m not a liar. stop calling me a liar... I could start insulting you, if you want?.......and trust me, i`ll bother you until you leave.

But, kenny, since you asked for recent studies, here`s one; 
 
http://www.canadianrockies.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/esgbp_chapt4.pdf 
 
and, here`s another; 
 
http://www.bearbiology.com/fileadmin/tpl/Downloads/URSUS/Vol_5/Kingsley_Nagy_Russell_Vol_5.pdf 
 
They all agree with my statements.

Kenny....did you say you`ll track me down, and murder me?....i`d like to see you try....i live in barry farms, in d.c....come on over here. i`m an expert in martial arts......even then, the neighborhood i live in, i doubt you`d want to start any trouble. 
 
enough of the insults.....nothing you say matters in the least.  
 

Alu, i assure you i`m not a biased lion fan....unlike you, i can produce the data to confirm my statements, and from reliable sources at that. 
 
I don`t answer every comment, merely the ones that stand out...i tend to stay away from the really unintelligent ones, though. 
 
I never said a lion could kill a bear with little effort, nor did i state they would always win. But, studies by george washington crile, on the organ and gland weights of many animals, including the grizzly and polar bear, as well as lions, indicate the lion, more than any other animal, can execute a more effective immediate attack than any animal of comparable size, and indeed they have the most complex celiac ganglia of any large mammal thus compared.  
 
and, i believe the siberian tiger would, on most occasions, defeat the brown bear. A lot of people seem to have a lot of wrong misconceptions about the weight of these animals.......well, i have the data, and reliable data, which confirms my points.

also, Zeroman, i didn`t lie...i said it would take a nearly perfect shot for a grizzly to kill a moose with one blow, and, there are few reliable records in proof of this, though i don`t doubt it could happen. 
 
Though, i could mention a great many feats achieved by the lion, which is just as great. But, what will it prove?.....

Alu, im also a canine and feline lover. but NO wolf would stand a chance against a mountain lion. wolves are very small and people give them a little to much credit. this isnt anything against you. im just saying for all the crazy wolf fanatics that think "oh wolves could kill any old kitty" when realy most big-cats are bigger than them. 
 
 
 
Please wolf fanatics, realize wolves are very small and cannot take on alot of animals.

"however, it`s so rare.....likewise, the strike must be nearly perfect to be pulled off."  
 
 
 
realize that part? wow you were stupid to get into their fight. leave them alone. let them fight. you are not needed. i do not know why there are so many people in this fight when it is Alu's and Damon's. and both have good points. 
 
 
 
if this is not your fight, leave it alone.  
 
 
 
and do not come back at me with stupid crap you had to think of because you couldnt think of anything else to say. 
 
 
 
im sure Alu and Damon would appreciate not having 10 people breathing down their necks going "yeah yeah yeah! your going to win!"

Maesha I'm not fighting with Damon we are just having a discussion but not anymore like i said before 
 
Damon is clearly not worth having a discussion with because he will never learn. 
 
He is intelligent but he is just a bias lion fan boy and nothing more.  
 
In the land carnivore list the lion will always come third after the tiger and the bear.  
 
 
 
And where felines are concerned the lion is second place and will remain second place if hopefully tigers do not become extinct in the near or far future.  
 
 
 
Lion vs polar/brown bear 91/100 goes to the bears.  
 
And I'm only a fan of dogs but I was a zoologist thats why I posted here.

Alu...what do you mean, i will never learn?...i have the data, at hand, mind you, to prove my statements....and, from reliable sources. Do you?...tigers are not larger than lions, and neither are brown bears. Perhaps you will never learn....even when i show the data....people still state, i will never learn....2 + 2 will always be 4. 
 

2+2 will always be 4 and Grizzly's, polar, kodiak and other subspecies of brown bears will always be larger than lions, the 2nd largest cat after the tiger which also is bigger, albeit shorter-there are DOGS as tall as lions, for the gods sakes-bears are huge, gigantic omnivores which means anything they choose goes into there mouth-ANYTHING. Grizzly's ARE larger than lions who are around 400 lbs, some larger as in zoos where they become fat, and some lighter around the 350 lb range as in the wild, which occasionally they can get to 450 lbs or rarer cases more. Grizzy's on the other hand, all the time weigh in the wild 850 lbs and more (1,100 lbs) although there have been Grizzy's weighing 1,600 lbs in captivity. For the ability of the Grizzly to achieve massive sizes tripling the lions size makes them a larger animal, tigers are larger as well and are recognized in the scientific community as the largest feline on earth (ligers do not count as they are an abberration caused by genetic manipulation by German scientists)and polar bears are touted as the worlds largest carnivores as they ARE larger, stronger and eat exclusively meat unlike other bears who are omnivores. The case is an open and shut one for size comparisons bw Grizzly and lion-talk to any animal biologist of bears and lions and they will tell you the same thing I'm posting here. Bear is king, lions are amazing, tigers are the largest cat, and you better be glad as viscious as dogs are in a fight that they are not larger, they would dominate the earth's predators!

ATTILA, i have every modern document published upon the weight of both lions and tigers, and, in terms of the external measurements of these animals, there is little, to no difference, and, as for weight, about equal as well. 
 
Some populations of grizzlies, ones which were not starving, averaged 143 kg.......as =, with most grizzlies, usually only the females hibernate. and, grizzlies do not commonly weigh 850 lbs, and few exceed or even reach 1000 lbs. Polar bears are indeed larger than lions, but, this is due to their larger consumption of food, and not actual body size. and, a great many lions get over 450 lbs.....there is a great many records of specimens over 500 lbs.

here is something on the size of bears; 
 
http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/39 
 
any more excuses?.....

Well then why are tigers and bears in published national geographic amongst a myriad of other wildlife books cited as being larger-are they all wrong and you are right?? I think not-they are the same ones putting the information for people like us to read about and they do cite tehm as being larger-its common knowledge, Damon, that tigerss and bears are larger. When you go to the zoo, do you tell the keeper there that is making announcements and stating animal facts on particular species that they are wrong as well? I know plenty about bears, thats why I came on here to post and pass on what I've learned to other posters-you and I disagree about this, and in this instance, you are wrong-I've given you so many sites to look up to show yoiu all about bears and you still are argueing foolishly about lions being as large as a Grizzly which is prepostorous! I admire yoiur admiration of lions, but in lue of the information I've given you disputing your "facts", it goes beyond admiration and crosses over to fanaticism. Its not good to be fanatical or a fanatic about anything-its just not heathly and it distortes your view on reality. The reality is, is that both Grizzly's ARE in fact larger than lions AS ARE tigers-who are continually touted as being the worlds largest feling-and those are the cold hard facts, period.  
 
Polar bears ARE indeed larger in body size as well-have you even ever seen a polar bears paw??? It would cover a lions head-they are that massive! I have seen one in the zoo as well as the anchorage airport where it says on the plaque before the behemoth stands is a 13 ft tall giant of a polar bear-their bodies ARE quite larger-the only thing that comes close are kodiak bears who average the same sizes and weights. They consume more, are larger in body size mass and strength, and remain the largest carnivore on planet earth-not some other planet you may have been visiting-please come back to it!  
 
http://www.savethepolarbear.ca/facts.html 
 
Scientific name: Ursus maritimus  
 
Life span: 20-25 years  
 
Polar Bears are the worlds largest land predator.  
 
Polar bears have hollow fur, this works like a personal floatation device as they swim.  
 
Although their fur is creamy white their skin is black to soak up the 6 month Polar sun. Polar Bears actually often overheat and must rest when play wrestling.  
 
Polar bears eyes are blue  
 
Their footprint is approximately 13 inches long and 9 inches wide.  
 
Adults average between 2.4-2.6 meters (7.9-8.5 feet) in length and can stand 11 feet tall when upright, 3-4 foot at the shoulder.  
 
Males can weigh 400-600kgs (880-1320lbs) and can reach 800kgs  
 
Females are much smaller at 200-250kgs pregnant females can weigh 400 kgs  
 
Females now having singletons, used to have twins and stay with the cubs in the den for 3-4 months.  
 
Population 22,000 estimate 2003 stats  
 
60% of the Earths remaining Polar Bears live in Canada  
 
There are other populations in USA (Alaska) Russia Denmark (Greenland) Norway  
 
In 1973 these countries signed an agreement on the Conservation of Polar Bears. Canada is the only country to still allow hunting of the polar bear by non natives. A Polar Bear hunting license can be bought for as little as $50.00

ATTILA, national geographic often quote long known estimates upon the mass of these animals, rather than actual, proven studies. Likewise, those records you mentioned are not stated by experts in the field, which constitutes most of the records i have. 
 
and, the paw size of the polar bear has nothing to do with it`s body....i have actual records of the body size of the polar bear.....do you?.....if so....show them. 
 
And it is certainly true that polar bears CAN grow larger than lions.....but, a 13 ft tall specimen is quite an overlarge individual, far from the average. 
 
and, you given me no info, other than your opinion of these matters, and so-called mention of 850 lb bears...where is the study for that?...as well as proof it was actually weighed, and not merely an estimated figure?.... 
 
and, the MANY sites you`ve shown me was not created by experts in the field...anyone can make a website...what i`m talking about is reliable sources made by the experts themselves....or someone known in the scientific world. 
 
I`ll be waiting for your records of the above mentioned cases...

hahaha!!! Damon, I will come over I don't give a fuck! 
 
 
 
And it seems like EVERYBODY on this piece of shit knows martial arts, oh my god, I'm the only one who doesn't! LOL. You're extremely pathetic, even if you did know martial arts, I'd still fuck you up! And a bunch of niggers in your neighborhood don't scare me neither, would you mind if I came to your house with a .45 that I carry around all the time, shoot you in the fucking knees? I love to get beat up anyways, it feels good to me for some strange reason, and I'll get back up and put a hurtin' on your ass!!!! This same thing goes for the rest of yall! I'll take Damon out in a fucking heartbeat, I'll bust a cap in Frankie's fucking ass and Billy Bob Joe will beg for his life! As you can see, I'm FUCKED in the head!! Give me your full address, Damon!!! I'd love to come visit you! :)

Hey......there's an idea, why don't all of us meet each other and fight! If you like to cuss at people and "TRY" to scare them with martial arts that everybody on here knows besides me, then you're willing to fight, right? 
 
 
 
Damon, you're getting yourself into some shit you don't want!! Besides, I don't believe you've ever been in a fight anyways, you little coward. "come on over here" something a gay ass nigger from d.c. would say!

WOW...are you on right now kenny? 
 
 
 
btw kenny, why are you acting like a badass towards these people, I gave you my address you COWARD. If you wanna fight, i'm free! 
 
 
 
Ignore him guys, he's probably been raped or something as a child (at least that's the feeling I get from him) because he cries and freaks out about everything, when somebody tells him off, he threatens them and you know damn well he aint gonna do it. Btw, kenny- are you and zeroman the same guy? because that would be just downright sad if you posted as two different people; that means you don't have a healthy lifestyle - and YOU get on to damon for this?

And I will repeat: 
 
You are clearly not worth having a discussion with because you will never learn.  
 
 
 
You might as well just say that a lion can kill any animal regardless of size with little efort.  
 
 
 
We get it Damon the lion is very precious to you but that does not make it the ultimate carnivore.  
 
 
 
Damon go get a good job that doesn't let you slack off so much. 
 
I have nothing more to say to a bias. 
 

Frankie don't you see that kenny as some thing against black people and just to let you know I am Black. 
 
You can't compare me to him because I have never once told anyone I will kill them not even that Liar damon 
 
And I beleive that most of you here live in the US I live in Landon.

This might be my last post here for my days of leave are almost over and I need to make the necessary preparation for the very busy months ahead. 
 
so later all of you

kenny, in my neighborhood, there has been at least 5 deaths in the past month.....do you really think you can scare me?........ 
 
 
 
Not only do you probably don`t know what i look like.....but, also, in my neighborhood, where there`s cops on almost every street...you`d find it difficult to carry any type of gun, conceled or otherwise.  
 
 
 
and yeah, you are fucked in the head.....and, even if you should come to my neighborhood, i seriously doubt you`d succeed in shooting me.....do you not think i won`t be prepared?.....

Kenny, i assure you i`ve gotten into plenty of fights......i doubt you`d be any match. But, come over here....and show me what you`re made of?......

A lu, also, i have a job, and i don`t slack off....i`m not online 24/7......only a couple of hours here and there.....before and after work. 
 
 
 
I never said a lion could kill any animal regardless of their size, nor have i ever stated this. But, how fair is a fight between a lion and another animal which is much larger?.......

Zeroman, where have i lied?.....i can offer evidence, and reliable ones at that, for every one of my statements.

ATTILA NationalGeographic is not the best source. they get their measurments quite wrong. alot of their other information is good though.

and by the way, who cares about Martial Arts?! how about some real fighting.

okay, this is getting annoying. every time i check my mail i have at LEAST 15 messages from this place!  
 
 
 
and you guys, please dont fight over somthing so silly. you both have opinions and strongly back up those opinions. it doesnt mean you have to kill each other. i hope its all talk because i do not wish to hear of people killing each other over a debate. T^T

Damon it is indeed true that the biggest brown bear from the wild vs the biggest lion from the wild is unfair to the lion, but brown bears are on average bigger than lions not to mention when it is close to the winter time when they have to pack on pounds, but a brown bear the size of a lion vs the lion is also unfair to the bear for it would be a young bear and it is less experienced and that would ultimately make the lion the winner. 
 
but all in all it is an unfair fight for both parties. 
 
While a black bear stands little chance against the lion. 
 
 
 
Largest Male lion in the wild: 690 pound(confirmed) 
 
Lardest male brown Bear(Kodiak): 1656 pounds 
 
As you can see the bear's almost 1000 pounds heavier. 
 
 
 

Also when Alu said it MIGHT be his last post here, there is a high chance of him never coming back, the guy's a workaholic.

I've already gave you that info-all you have to do is scroll up and read it. 
 
Bottom line is, Grizzly's ARE larger than lions as are polar bears which ARE the largest land carnivore on earth as they strictly eat meat unlike other bears which are omnivores-the largest carnivore on the planet-do you hear this Damon? This is reinforced by the entire world except for you being unable to cope with something being larger, stronger and more powerful than your lion-regardless whether you like it or not-its the true fact just as gravity-you may not enjoy the fall, but it doesn't change the fact it exists! 
 
Maesha, I've shown Damon multitude of times different scientific proof backing up my posts-he even used my reference to Kenny when argueing with him, so he knows, he just is in denial given the facts that I've shown him because he is in love with lions,regardless, the polar, brown and Grizzly will be able to maul a lion to death as they are the true kings of predators. Lions used to live in north America, but were wiped out by the short-face bear. Bears nowadays have sturdier bones than the short-face bear did and are dominators of their domains wherever they roam. Exceptions happen with them as in all nature, and all creatures are susceptable to exceptions, like warthogs killing lions and zebra's killing lions, tigers killing brown bears in Siberia, even a man killing a lion with his bare hands(and he wasn't even Jet Li)http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/africa/news/article_1375106.php/Kenyan_man_who_defeated_lion_dies_after_attack_by_hyenas 
 
-these are exceptions and can happen although its not the norm. I've seen a 900 plus pound Grizzly-not an uncommon size at all-where in the world is a lion that size?? grizzly's ARE larger, period!

ATTILA< you`ve shown me very few authetic records of the weight of grizzlies.....mostly from unreliable websites....i have data directly from scientists in the field....and it seems the grizzlies were not as large as you`d like to believe. 
 
 
 
and, i`ve already seen that account of the man killing that lion, in fact, i put it on my forum like 3 weeks ago........but, how old is that lion?...was it completely healthy?.....i doubt a man could take on a completely healthy adult lion and live to tell the tale.  
 
 
 
and, i`ve already told you the polar bear was larger than the lion....but, this is due to food intake, and not actual body size. I have actual data upon this, at hand. Do you?......

Ace, i have actual records upon the mass of both lions and brown bears, as reported by scientists in the field, and indeed there was no difference in weight. 
 
 
 
I have MANY studies upon this subject, from reliable sources. There was a record of a lion over 750 lbs, as mentioned by Charles pitman, a game warden. 
 
 
 
And, even adult brown bears may average only 143 kg....and, these are scarcely what you`d call starving populations, rather, there size is related to food intake.

Damon 
 
 
 
That over 750 lbs lion was never confirmed, and in the guinness book of world records 1993 the Average for a Kodiak bear is 476-533 kg. Just like your records this one is less than 20 years old. 
 
 
 
You say the size of a brown bear is dependent upon food intake so in other words the records you have of the captive lions beating the captive bears is only saying those bears were simply not fed well.

And even that over 750 lbs lion would still stand little chance against the 1656 lbs bear. The bear is still way to big for the lion.

Ace, i`ve seen those records from the guinness book of records, and i disagree. No current records agree with those statistics, and they are simply false. Likewise, it also stated that amur tigers average a great deal more than their true weights......the info from guinness is far from reliable, when cpnsidering averages. 
 
 
 
and, lions beating captive bears have nothing to do with bears being fed well or not......if they are fed the same amount, than they would likely be of equal weight.

Also, i never stated the brown bear couldn`t grow larger than lions....they can...but, this is due to the fact they lack a certain substance called leptin, which effectively controls hungar, and which causes there great size, in some cases. Even then, a specimen over 1000 lbs is an overlarge animal, and, of current records which i possess, even the largest specimens were below even 1000 lbs. 
 
 
 

what's the deal here? i'm seeing some crazy fucked-up individuals threatening people with guns here and all of you are still commenting? 
 
 
 
My god will all of you quit! it's kind of pointless carrying on a debate on this childish, no-good website. My brother frankie told me about this and i thought it was sad, lions and bears will never meet each other in the first place, and if they did, there aint gonna be one true winner, either the bear would win or the lion would win, and thats a fact. 
 
 
 
now why dont you all just scurry somewhere else, i dont see why you would find this site much fun anyways. and if you comment negative to me then you must be a sad person.

Actually, i take back my previous statement....the male polar bear is proportionately larger than the lion, 235.5 cm (body length) compared to 180 cm for the lion.....it seems, in this case, i was wrong, though i was quoting the particular studies on memory.  
 
So, in this instance, i would have to agree they are larger, proportionately, and most certainly overall.

Thanks Alu! 
 
I completely agree with what you say about tiger-bear interactions. Indian sloth bears have a mixed reputation, as old British colonial records describe many attacks on humans, but the sloth bear, being an anteater, is the least predatory of all bear species. Thus a sloth bear has no reason to confront a tiger unless in self-defense or in the defense of its cubs; conflict over prey, as it occasionally happened between tigers and brown bears or Himalayan black bears, is out of the question. American black bears are more predatory, but much less than grizzlies.  
 
PS: Jaguars also love water.:)

Damon, I've been telling you this about polar bears-at least you're beginning to be big enough to recognize it now and admit when you've made a mistake. 
 
Balazs, I like jaguars as well and I've seen something like it in the Philippines while on patrol in the jungles there comming out of the water on to shore on the opposite bank. I've heard that pound-for-pound, jaguars are the strongest members of the big cat family-have yoiu heard this as well?

ATTILA, while you have been telling me polar bears are proportionately bigger, i of course did not come to this conclusion because of you.....rather, i was quoting the specific data on memory (at least, those of the polar bear, as i remember the lion info by heart)and i admit i made a mistake...albeit a small one.  
 
But, i would agree with your point that jaguar`s are, lb for lb, the strongest big cats.

Hi Attila! 
 
Yes, I also heard that jaguars are proportionately the strongest of all big cats, and I can easily believe that. They do look incredibly massive, particularly in comparison with leopards, and their jaws are truly formidable. While other big cats go for the throat or the jugular, their long canines can pierce the skull of their victim as neatly as one drives in a chisel with a hammer. They are also good in both swimming and tree-climbing, whereas tigers excel only in the former and leopards only in the latter.  
 

BTW, would you give support to my initiate of suggesting a fight between a female lion and a big male jaguar of roughly the same size and weight? It would be a really interesting one, I think. If enough people support the idea, the moderators may add a jaguar-lion fight to the list.

Big cats experts describe the jaguar as a leopard on steroids. 
 
I don't know about that lioness vs jaguar, both are strong cats and can hunt large prey on thier own. 
 
Some male jaguars have been known to reach the weights of both lionesses and tigresses, I even read this animal encyclopedia once saying that even though rear jaguars have been known to reach a weight of 400 bls, when I remember the name I'll post it. 
 
More research needs to be done on this fight though. 
 
I support this one alot.

Zeroman, there is no verification of a 400 lb jaguar......not to mention, one of that size would be less agile and responsize. I think a jaguar even as large as a lioness would be weaker, and so at a disadvantage.

Thanks Zeroman and Damon. If you are interested, please write to "Suggest Fights." If enough people ask for it, the moderators will hopefully open a new topic for a jaguar-lion fight. 
 
 
 
PS: What I found also suggests that the biggest male jaguars may have a weight of about 160 kilograms (350 pounds). But it would be better to list all these data on a separate topic.

Damon, of COURSE polar bears are larger-everyone knows that!! I even gave you save teh polar bear sites which have scientists and animal biologists exclusively dedicated to them and they actively research them, thus the information I passed on to you was from active field biologists, so if yoiu didn't come to conclusions from me, that means yoiu didn't read what I sent you because you think yiou are a know-it-all, or don't want to think something is bigger, more powerful than the lion. If somebody has a valid point, you should listen to whats being said-we can all learn something and nobody knows all. 
 
 
 
Balazs, yes indeed I would support that jaguar vs lion. Jaguars weight range puts them at 300 lbs, and would not be a pushover and real threat to a male lion as well. Would they fight if facing each other-or turn away at the prospect of risk of injury. My guess would be the jaguar MIGHT not fight as its a solitary hunter and the lion has the females doing ALL the work for him. I wonder if that cat I and other Marines saw was a jaguar in the Phillippines. I am not sure of thier range. 
 
I support this one,haha-I already know which one Damon thinks will win!

ATTILA, i did indeed view the sites you gave you, but, not only do they not agree with the records i have, but, they are not based upon actual studies concerning the measurements of these animals......merely, you gave list to a site which mentioned some unverified data on weight and body measurements. 
 
also, male lions do NOT have the females doing all the work for them....that is a misconception. In fact, they hunt 2/3rd`s as much as the female, and, in some areas, gain more from their own killing, than what they may gather from the females. 
 
However, males do appropriate upon any carcass from the females that may be smaller than about 100 kg......this is because, as accomplished a hunter as they are, they still find it very difficult, as they are not only slower than the females, but that large mane of theirs make them conspicuous to prey items. If they didn`t get any food from the lionesses, they may very well find it difficult to get their daily requirement of about 6 - 14 kg a day or so.

Damon, the sites i gave you supported my facts on polar bears on here, hence I showed you because tehy conflicted with your information on them as being the largest living carnivore on the planet. http://www.savethepolarbear.ca/facts.html is a website to find out about polar bears in hopes that the people reading this on their site will donate to help save the polar bears and thus fund more research and other programs-they have field biologists on hand feeding that site information, so there's accurate data to be found on there as I've previously stated. They have to weigh them as do zoos in order to anestithise the animals, so they are very well aware of the animals weight and size. 
 
Well, you know more about lions, but as I've stated before, since I study the Hyena, I inevitably know things about lions when learning about them, too. Most all research I've seen states the lion(male) as being the lazy one and the females doing all the work-raising cubs, hunting for the pride and taking down prey, etc-this chauvanistic aura shed on the male lion is what gave him his standing with Britain and other countries where lions aren't native-it was their role in the pride that made them accepted as mascots if youi will to those countries-even india the name "Singh" means lion due to the standing and status of male lions structure in the pride and their lording it over the females making them carry out 98% of the duties. To these countries at that period in time, this trait was seen as admirable, however in today's society in this country, its deplorable-but hey, its only an animal doing what they've been doing for an eon. I do know lionesses bring down prey and hunt the majority of the time-just look at how those females are ripped with their muscles bulging out and the males have big fat bellies!

Your welcome Balazs 
 
Damon its what I saw in a book I never said it had happen. The name of the book is Funk and Wagnalls Wild Life Encyclopedia, originally I only thought a jaguar could get as big as 300 lbs but now I'm sure they can grow larger. 
 
Just like a Tiger a jaguar would proberly aviod a fight with a male lion, because a jaguar can't afford to get seriouly injured, that will only mean one thing for the jaguar but an injured male lion can steal from the females and feed himself. 
 
But I think more research needs to be done.

ATTILA, that website you showed is far from reliable....rather than give any exact measurements, it mentions a range, and then states the polar bear can get up to 800 kgs....the only source i have which stated polar bears get that large, is one where a polar bear was too large to be weighed, but estimated at 800 kgs.  
 
and, it is a misconception that male lions are lazy...check this out; 
 
http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/20 
 
you should sign up.......you could learn a good deal more about animals, as most people post there sources and data, and also as new topics are made.

Damon, that site is reliable, they deal with these giants of the grim and frostbitten kingdoms on a regular basis-I think they know what they're talking about. I myself know a great deal about bears, and most of it is committed to memory from reading books and listening to locals living in "bear country" to watching vids I've bought in the past to seeing new ones on tv programs-its all knowledge that I've retained-regardless, they all agree that the polar bear is the world's largest carnivore-just as I've stated(although kodiak Grizzly's are just as large sometimes. They give a range, bc they have a range just as male lions do-the zoo in Houston I went to had an adult male african lion and he weighed 315 lbs and he is done growing unless of course he eats alot more-interestingly enough, thats within range of a 300 lb jaguar they have/had. He didn't look lean, he looked like a regular lion. Most people DO think that about male lions and their inherent laziness, I will read the link above you posted and see what it says about them. 
 
I may sign up-everyone can always learn more about animals-noone knows all. There are other animals I'd like ot learn more about as well. 
 

ATTILA, studying these animals (polar bears) in the wild, doesn`t mean they actually weighed them...it appears, at least to me, that they are merely quoting long known records, which are not based upon actual studies.  
 
That may be one of the reasons they did not report the average sizes of these animals....as they likely lacked the studies to give it. 
 
But, i have actual records from scientists in the field, after having weighed these animals, and there results reported. 
 
You can learn of the size of bears here; 
 
http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/39 
 
Also, a 315 lb lion is quite a small specimen....even in the wild, they usually average roughly 190 kg; 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/comparativegrowthofwildmaleandfe-5.jpg 
 

It seems that male jaguars do not fight for females or for territory as frequently as male lions do: 
http://creative-commons-photo.com/image/69-jaguar 
 
Since territorial fights are definitely more common among male lions than among female ones, a male jaguar and a female lion may have roughly the same qualities in fighting another big cat of a similar size.

PS: There are no wild jaguars or leopards in the Phillipines. The local leopard cats also have a spotted fur, but they're rather small. I doubt if you could have mistaken a leopard cat for a jaguar, so it must have been something else. May you tell us a bit more about it?

Balazs, It was in 91' and I was on patrol with my unit, we were being very quit as there were enemy guerrillas in the area when we saw a large black cat(I've heard black panthers are actually leopards or jaguars)and not only did I not know they had large cats there, which we all saw it, but they also have cobras and we didn't know it till we saw one as well. Let me konw your thoughts on this-right before I went through JEST(jungle environment survival training), they showed us a variety of animals we might encounter to aviod-they didn't mention any big cats, so maybe one escaped from captivity?? It was in the boughs of a large tree horizontal lying there watching us with yellow-green eyes.

Thanks Attila! This may have been an escaped black leopard (panther), for I doubt if any rich Filipino landowner would have imported a rare black jaguar from faraway South America if he could have obtained a black leopard from Thailand, Indonesia or Malaysia. 
 
There is something that I do not see clearly. Who did come out of the water, you or the cat? 
 
<<Balazs, I like jaguars as well and I've seen something like it in the Philippines while on patrol in the jungles there coming out of the water on to shore on the opposite bank.>> 
 

Szervusz Balazs, to answer your question-the cat was comming out of the water on the opposite bank and we were approaching from the opposite bank comming out into the clearing that was the water and the cat sensed or heard us, abeit we were very quiet. 
 
ATTILA

Vital Statistics: 
 
 
 
[There are a lot of variation in the figures found online. I tried to collect them from reputed instituion and/or govt sources] 
 
 
 
Largest Lion in captivity: 806 lbs (366 kg)  
 
 
 
Largest Lion found in the wild: 702 lbs (318 kg) and 11′ (3.35 m)  
 
 
 
Average size (mode) of African Lion: 410 lbs (186 kg) and 8′10″ (2.7 m)  
 
 
 
** Lions stand around 1.15m (including mane) at shoulder as opposed to 1m of a tiger **  
 
 
 
Source: http://indrajit.wordpress.com/category/lion-vs-tiger/ 
 
 
 
I just found this link online, after i read all the comments by Kenny, Atilla and Damon.

Tigris, you said you tried to find a reliable site, and instead, you bring up a blog, much like this one, in fact. 
 
There has been reports of lions over 750 lbs recorded, the average being 190 kg (i have many records for this). Also, the average lion is 9ft in length, the same as the tiger.

Tigris, the link you posted I've read and posted myself-its a very good one and provides quite correct data on size differences between lions and tigers-I've read teh entirity of the article and believe it to be true, unbiased and very accurate, after all, the tiger is acclaimed as being the largest big cat on earth by all experts-and thats true, this link backs up its facts with its sources which I've looked into as well as being equally reliable. Lions are around 400 lbs on average, while tigers are bigger, except females(don't underestimate females-one has killed male lion adults)which are closer to lions size than male tiger size.

ATTILA, lions actually average 190 kg, not 400 lbs (180 kg). And, while the tiger is often claimed as being the largest, this is merely a well thought assumption based upon limited data.  
 
I should know....i have every modern document that has been published upon the subject.....not many can say that, even scientists. But, i can show you, if you disagree?..... 
 
The heaviest lion on record was over 750 lbs, while peter jackson mentions a lion of 930 lbs in captivity. 
 
Here are some records of the body mass of lions; 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/comparativegrowthofwildmaleandfe-5.jpg 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/comparativegrowthofwildmaleandfe-2.jpg 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/etosha3-1.jpg

I really don't think you can dispute that a lion is heavier than a tiger because a tiger really does average a bigger weight than a lion, however it evens out because lions are taller and average a longer length. 
 
 
 
I really don't think that the question of a black bear is much of an issue when it comes to a lion... although black bears can fight, a lion is at least 3 times as agressive and even more explosive... 
 
black bears are more mild natured, i don't think they would choose to fight with a lion to begin with, and i don't think they have the means or agility to keep up. 
 
 
 
A better match up would be against a grizzly bear... I think a lion could even match up to a polar bear as most of their body weight is made up of fat.

Also out of curiosity how can a lion stand 1.15 metres at the shoulder including it's mane? 
 
 
 
a lion can only stand 1.15 metres at the shoulder the mane can't be included. 
 
 
 
4 foot is average for an african lion 3 foot is average for a tiger.

I doubt they'd even end up fighting really. Plus they dont live in the same areas so a fight would never naturally happen.

Oliver, the tiger isn`t any heavier than lions, according to most reliable measurements. It`s true that lions are taller, but, the tiger has a proportionately longer spinal column, exclusive of the head and neck, which is longer in the lion, overall length being equal.  
 
Lions and tigers are of equal size.

Actually lions often reach a greater length than tigers, lions have a greater body frame. 
 
 
 
And it is true that tigers are heavier, you can't honestly think that any lion (excluding an atlas lion) or any lion living in the wild is heavier than a siberian tiger which has to pack on a lot of fat to be able to live in siberia. 
 
 
 
Or a napalese bengal tiger averages a heavier weight. 
 
 
 
but that's not judging who would win in a fight my vote still stays with the lion.

Oliver, you are quite wrong.....lions are no longer than tigers...in fact, in terms of overall length, they are equal.  
 
And, while it is true that amurs have a bit of extra fat, lions have the larger organ and gland weights, according to studies by george washington crile. Also, the largest siberian weighed by the siberian tiger project was only 206 kg. here is some data of the siberians weighed by the project; 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/anexo71averageweightkga.png 
 
Here is some data on lions; 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/comparativegrowthofwildmaleandfe-5.jpg 
 
And, the nepal, or chitwan tigers, which included only 7 specimens, average 235 kg....however, they were baited and weights not adjusted for food content, though they ate a total of 14 kg a day, feeding upon baits and natural kills. 
 
So, there average weight, adjusted for food content, is 221 kg. $ lions weighed by the kenya wildlife service average 221.5 kg, and ranged in weight from 180 - 272 kg. Charles pitman mentions the weight of 5 male lions from transvaal, which averaged 217 kg. 
 
Tigers are no larger than lions.

'The lion would totally kill the the black bear but if it were a brown bear or a polar bear the lion doesn't stand a rats ass of a chance. " 
 
This is such a true statement.

You guys crack me up LOL! All I know is I have observed Coastal Brown Bears, Grizzly, and Kodiaks in mainland Alaska and Kodiak Island. These Brown Bears (males) are much bigger than any African Lion. The big male Brown Bears are between 800-1400 Lbs. They have a great diet of meat, fish, vegtables, fruit. The biggest Lion might reach 500-550Lbs at best. The subspecies of these three Brown Bears are too big, strong & plain mean for any Lion. The bears claws are larger, the paws/arms much more powerfull, the canines longer, and the jaws more powerfull. Also, these bears are well experienced in fighting one another.  
 
 
 
The bottom line: The Lion has no chance against either of these three subspecies of Brown Bear!

Also, Polar Bears would give a Lion a real beating! 
 
 
 
As for Lions vs. Tigers: If we are going to be objective; then it is hard to pick a winner. Lion lovers will go with their beloved Lion just as the Tiger fan will do the same. I say it's 50/50! 
 
 
 

ted, no population of grizzly bears or brown bears average 800 - 1400 lbs, the latter of which is very near, if not above the highest recorded figure...those would be massive specimens.....then again, very little data exists upon most, and, the ones that do are age biased, or else specimens were weighed during a specific time of the month, which is biased as well, as the weight of these animals fluctuates much throughout the months....and, a study of many specimens throughout all the months is a more reliable figure, starting from young adults to the very old.....

And, here`s an account where a lion defeated a polar bear; 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/lionkillspolarbear-2.jpg

Damon, I tried the site; it stated video removed. However, the subspecies Male Coastal Brown Bears & Kodiaks of ALASKA easily get to between 800-1200 Lbs. Kodiaks can get up to 1500Lbs. during the Salmon run. I know; I have studied them! 
 
 
 
If we are going to objectively discuss this subject then we must pick each animal at their best.  
 
 
 
Sure if a Male lion caught one of these bears coming out of it's den after hibernation then yes a Lion could kill the Bear. 
 
 
 
However, if you ever get to see Coastel Brown Bears, Grizzlies, or Kodiaks in Alaska between June-October you will see how huge these animals are. They can put on 200Lbs. after hibernation and during the Salmon run between late spring early winter. 
 
 
 
Inland Grizzlies don't get as big because of the lack of food source. Also, remember Grizzlies have almost been hunted to extinction in the lower 48 states. The big males are usually the first to go. I would say an inland MALE Grizzly goes between 600-800 Lbs. Still big enough to kill the African Lion.  
 
 
 
Look up "Interspecies Conflict" and go to the "Ultimate Carnivore" or the Grizzly. Historically when African Lions were brought to the U.S. and pitted against these bears the Lion never stood a chance.

ted, bears can, and do get up to those weights you mentioned...but, they are far from average....or even normal...... 
 
The heaviest population i`ve found of brown bears was those of alaska, which averaged 389 kg...but, that particular study was age specific (only those bears of a specific age were measured)and bears reach a peak weight at the age of about 13 years.....but, that`ll give high, as well as biased results. Another thing is that the study was limited (only 5 specimens weighed) and specimens measured during a specific time of the month, which is also biased, for reasons i gave before. 
 
Lions too, can get up to 600 lbs or more...but, the book, great bear almanac, gives an average weight of 200 kg for all groups of brown/grizzly bears, and, i`m inclined to agree....though other sources, onces reliable reported by scientists in the field, give an average of from 190 - 222 kg...certainly within the range of the lion, and indeed i have many scientifically published documents upon this. 
 
and, on lairwebs (interspecies conflict site) i do not agree the grizzlies killed those lions, and no accurate records exist...at least, none that i`ve come across, and i`ve seen that site many times. However, studies actually show that it`s the big cats which have the greater bone density, so the statement that they crushed the lion`as skull with one blow due to greater bone density is not accurate, as lions have particularly dense bones, and, i can show you the studies, if you want?.....

Damon, look up "The Grizzly Almanac" Pg. 109. Horace Bell a renowned Ranger documented a story of the Grizzly easily killing the African Lion. Also, another good book "California Grizzly." It was not uncommon 150-200 years ago for Californians & Mexicans to pit Bears against Bulls in the arena. The Grizzlies always won!  
 
 
 
Now back to size: As you know there are quite a few subspecies of Brown Bear. I specifically stated, "The Alaskan Coastal Brown Bear" "The Kodiak" and the "Inland Grizzly" which really is in my opinion the same species as Coastal Brown only smaller in size due to diet. 
 
 
 
Ok! Now Coastal Brown Bears which I have personally observed in the wild do vary in size. Adult Males can easily way between 800-1200 Lbs. DURING the SALMON run. There is no way to say exactly what the average Male Coastal Brown Bear wieghs; but 800Lbs. between late spring and early winter is close. The big ones get over 1,000Lbs.  
 
 
 
I have been to Kodiak Island and can tell you they are the biggest Brown Bear species in the world. Individually they have been recorded bigger than Polar Bears. The males can get up to 1,400 LBS.+++; that is not uncommon. I believe the famous bear Bart was actually a Kodiak. Look it up! 
 
 
 
I like MMA but I am not into watching animals fight.  
 
 
 
Take care, 
 
Ted

ted, of course you don`t think one account of a bear killing a lion, particularly when i have two more of a lion killing a brown bear, would mean anything?.... 
 
and, what does pitting bears against bulls have to do with lions?..... 
 
and, kodiak bears are not the largest subspecies...polar bears quite frequently weigh over 400 kg....and, i have actual records of this, from experts in the field, not merely some unreliable website.....

Damon, did you even read my comments? LOL... 
 
 
 
First, you wrote, "I have two or more of a Lion killing a Brown Bear." What kind of Brown Bear; cubs or the sick & old??? 
 
 
 
Second, you wrote, "Kodiaks are NOT the Largest subspecies...Polar Bears" etc.. Pay attention! KODIAK BROWN BEARS ARE indeed the largest subspecies; POLAR BEARS are NOT a subspecies of Brown Bear! 
 
 
 
Kodiak Males go between 900-1500 Lbs. The biggest recorded individual bears were Kodiaks. However, on average Polar Bears are a little bigger. 
 
 
 
My earlier comments address Alaskan Coastal Browns & Grizzlies so I will not repeat myself. 
 
 
 
As for "records by experts in the field;" I have hiked, studied, photographed up close, sometimes within 30 feet, Alaskan Coastal Browns at Brooks Falls & other areas of Katmai National Park with the zoologists who write the information you read.  
 
 
 
During Salmon runs in July & Augest I have observed at close range Kodiak Bears with zoologists on Kodiak Island.  
 
 
 
I have seen an Alaskan inland Grizzly chase down and kill a Moose! 
 
 
 
The bottom line; I have been and studied at the places you only read about. 
 
 
 
I noted with citations Grizzlies vs. Bulls & Lions for historical reasons. Don't think for a minute these Bulls can't defeat a Lion. These bulls are as big, if not bigger than the Cape & Water Buffalo that run off Male African Lions in one on one confrontations. 
 
 
 
Lastly, my money is on: 1.Kodiak Bear 2.Alaskan Coastal Brown Bear 3.Grizzly 4.Polar Bear over the Lion 99.95 of the time. 
 

Ted, the brown bears that were killed by those lions were adult specimens..... 
 
and, a weight of 900 - 1500 lbs is large for ANy bear....i`ve seen a record of a brown bear in captivity, that only weighed but a bit mroe than 1500 lbs, and it was described as obese...in fact, it could hardly get around (it was old as well). 
 
and, what does a bear killing a moose have to do with a lion?...lions can kill cape buffalo and giraffe single handedly... 
 
and, studying places doesnt mean you know more than i do....but, enlighten me....how was you able to get to those places you studied, and with what expert were you with?...and, name the place?....

damon, there is no records or proof of any lion killing giraffs single handed... the only time lions will take down giraffes is in a pride. 
 
 
 
and giraffes aren't exactly adept to fighting. 
 
 
 
ted... damon wrote kodiak bears are not the largest subspecies, when he said this i'm sure he was refering to the species of bears not brown bears. 
 
 
 
a grizzly, or polar bear vs a lion is a 50/50 fight, if not it could possibly be argued 60/40 in the lions favour 
 
 
 
why? well in this situation weight could never be a deciding factor, cape buffalos average a bigger weight than polar bearsand grizzlies and even lionesses bring them down 1 on 1. 
 
 
 
lions have more deadly weapons than bears, they are more explosive, quicker, more agile, and more intimidating. 
 
 
 
the bear simply put only has a strength advantage but it is a huge strength advantage. 
 
 
 
the fight would go probably 1 of 2 ways: 
 
 
 
1. the lion and bear cross paths, neither back down and the lion is first to attack, it circles around the bear and attacks the bears back, but the thick skin prevents the lion from causing too much damage, it will however cause quite a deal of pain. 
 
 
 
when the lion realises it isn't working or is thrown from the bears back, it will head straight for the bears throat closing it's air supply off in a matter of seconds and killing the bear. 
 
 
 
2. the lion and bear cross paths, neither back down and the lion is first to attack, it circles around the bear and attacks the bears back, but the thick skin prevents the lion from causing too much damage, it will however cause quite a deal of pain 
 
 
 
however the lion will soon release the bear and go for it's throat, if it is indeed thrown from the back it will surely attack from the front to get t the throat... the bear is slow compared to a lion but still not slow, if it catches the lion in time the bears blows will rain down on the lion, the mane offers protection but not against that vast ammount of strength, and the lions neck will be snapped. 
 
 
 
or perhaps if the lion survives the first set of attacks from the bear it will back off.

Oliver, check this record out, of a lion killing a giraffe single handedly; 
 
"After searching the area for four days I finally tracked him down in the lower Ugab River, where he had killed a giraffe bull. " 
http://www.desertlion.info/news08a.html 
 
and, the bear isn`t stronger than the lion...... 
 
studies show the lion would be able to execute a more effective immediate attack, and likewise they are of greater bone density, aggression, and agility...the lion would be the usual winner..... 
 
Note: i have studies for the above mentioned statements. for more info, email me at brentonjimmy@yahoo.com, or visit my forum, at wildanimalelite.yuku.com

Yes indeed ted, look up my citations. I assure you i know what i`m talking about...there are a lot of misconceptions about the size and strength of brown bears, perhaps these records will help you; 
 
http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/39 
 
and, listen to what i stated before; 
 
"The heaviest population i`ve found of brown bears was those of alaska, which averaged 389 kg...but, that particular study was age specific (only those bears of a specific age were measured)and bears reach a peak weight at the age of about 13 years.....but, that`ll give high, as well as biased results. Another thing is that the study was limited (only 5 specimens weighed) and specimens measured during a specific time of the month, which is also biased, for reasons i gave before." 
 
Likewise, you don`t have to bother looking up that info i stated, i`ll show them now; 
 
Bone density; 
 
http://www.scribd.com/doc/20440323/1304649-1254335844 
 
Here`s even more on the bone density of lions; 
 
http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/51/master/1/ 
 
And, the kind of bear i was talking of was brown bears...all brown bears are basically the same animal, except grizzlies. And, here is more info which suggests the lion would be able to execute a more effective immediate attack; 
 
http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/14 
 
there you go.....

Damon, i'm not sure about the reliability of that, it doesn't say that they witnessed him killing the giraffe bull, perhaps he scavenged from another pride, and even on the off chance that he did... like i say giraffs aren't exactly adept for fighting like a bear is. 
 
 
 
@Ted... 
 
 
 
no you misread what i said, lions have more DEADLY weapons, for starters... bears do not have a greater jaw power, and their jaw is quite narrow compared to a lions... they don't necsessarily have longer claws and lions know how to use their claws much more effectively than a bear... also lions use their whole bodies whilst fighting, wheras bears generally tend to only use their arms and jaws, they stand on their hind legs and either grab onto their opponent and bite, or swing their arms. 
 
 
 
lions on the other hand use their jaws, claws, hind legs and by using their hind legs they are foced to use the rest of the body... 
 
 
 
and you are quite mistaken, if faced with a bigger opponent, or more likely most opponents, lions go for the back first and try to bring it down and if that doesn't work they will go for the throat, lions only bite each others noses when fighting because the mane prevents them from getting a throat hold, but as witnessed in past fights with the tiger, and also whilst the lion is hunting (particularly buffalo) a lion will go for the throat if the back isn't working. 
 
 
 
and i'm not too sure about a bear being able to stop the lion, as i said earlier wheras bears tend to use only their arms and jaws in battle, lions use their whole body, would a bear be able to stop a lions explosive power is the question. 
 
 
 
oh and one last point to damon, you cannot deny that a bear has a huge strength advantage over a lion... even if you could prove a lions greater bone density the bear has pure raw muscle and is generally of far greater build.

DAMON, I think you only read my last sentence LOL... 
 
 
 
Anyways, You stated, "All Brown Bears are basically the same animal, except Grizzlies"  
 
 
 
You could not be more mistaken!  
 
 
 
I am disapointed in your Brown Bear knowledge. I expected better from you! 
 
 
 
Experts/Zoologists are far from agreement on the scientific classification of "Brown Bears." There are many "subspecies;" some list as many as 80-90.  
 
 
 
The smallest Brown Bears are probably the MiddleEastern "Syrian Brown Bears" 250-400 Lbs. MAX. And yes a Lion could defeat it! On the other hand; the largest Brown Bear subspecies is of course the Kodiak Bear which can MAX out at 900-1500 Lbs. 
 
 
 
IMPORTANT: For this reason I have specifically used the terms "Alaskan Coastal Brown Bears" "Kodiak Bears" "Grizzlies." 
 
 
 
You probably don't read what I write but I'll write it regardless.  
 
 
 
In regard to classification Grizzlies are closer to a Alaskan Brown Bear then Kodiaks are. The reason: Kodiaks are isolated from the mainland and have no interaction with Coastal Browns or Grizzlies. Kodiaks are considered a DISTINCT subspecies of Brown Bear.  
 
 
 
In other words, Kodiaks are close to being a seperate species unto themself. However, Grizzlies and Coastal Browns do come into contact and mate.  
 
 
 
In my opinion; though some disagree, the only difference between Inland Grizzlies and Coastal Brown Bears is DIET. MALE Coastal Browns MAX. 800-1100 Lbs. Inland Grizzlies MAX. anywhere from 500-900 Lbs.??? 
 
 
 
The bottom line: You cannot lump ALL Brown Bears into one group! 
 
 
 
OLIVER, 
 
 
 
You, stated, "You are quite mistaken" in reference to the Lions attack. Oliver, I have watched enough National Geographic to see how Lions attack LOL...  
 
 
 
Yes, they do jump on the backs of larger pray in order to bring them down; especially when hunting with their pride. As for the throat or nose; I won't dispute it. Eitherway, suffacation is the cause of death. However, the Lion is not going to reach the throat of the FOUR BEARS I keep listing. 
 
 
 
Weapons: JAW POWER! I am sure you are familiar with Zoologist Brady and his Jaw power tests. However, in my opinion, jaw power is very hard to measure! The Lion measured a bite force of approximately 600-700 Lbs. Hyenas 1000 Lbs.  
 
 
 
The bite force of the BIG 4 BEARS I listed are believed to be much higher. The problem with this study is getting the bears to cooperate with the rod used to measure the force. If you have some sound info on bite force/jaw strength I would be happy to view it. I can only go by what experts display. 
 
 
 
As for your comment, "Bears generally tend to only use their arms" could not be more wrong. A bear like a BOXER uses its LOWER-BODY, BACK, SHOULDERS, & ARMS/Claws when delivering fatal blows. The power of swat from a 700Lb.+++ BEAR can crush the skulls of elk and even moose. I think the Lion would be in deep shit if it took a solid strike from one of the BIG 4 BEARS.  
 
 
 
Also, the Lion using it's "whole body" would only make it easier for the bear to knock it off balance. After that it's over! 
 
 
 
Bear vs. Lion according to Ted LOL.

DAMON, How funny! 
 
 
 
I folowed your advice and looked up bone density of the lion. I went onto "Who Would Win/Dear to share" Lion vs. Bear. It stated that the Lions bone density is quite weak LOL... 
 
 
 
The California Grizzlies of the (1800-1850s) that I mentioned earlier were the topic. The site described how during the Gold Rush Lions were brought over and easily destroyed by the Grizzlies.  
 
 
 
Oliver,  
 
 
 
guess how? A swipe of the big bears paws. LOL.. 
 
 
 
It seems the Lions had no idea what kind of mess they were getting into. This is backed up by historical data I mentioned earlier in the Grizzly Almanac, Pg. 109. Lions are built as predatory animals; however, when they are the prey it is a different story. 
 
 
 
How funny is that! 
 
 
 
Damon, i'll still look for other data to support your view. In the meantime continue to take your courses in Zoology or whatever it is you do. i am anxious to read your book when it is published. Lord knows you spend enough time on the subject. 
 

Damon and Ted-Damon, 1500 lb bears move quite easily-arent you familiar with Bart the bear who was 1,600 lbs and moved very rapidly, was so strong he moved boulders and smashed logs? also the record is over 2,500 lbs both for polar and kodiak-not 1,500 lbs which is quite natural-yes it is! Bears are quite fast as well. My friend in Wa has a friend and his Grizzly is over 900 lbs-quite normal, because he hunts moose and elk and he sees plenty of bears as large and larger than his-and he can judge, because his bear he sees everyday, all day.  
 
Ted, I agree, bears have stronger jaws and are stronger animals in general, but I don't for a minute think a lion would tangle with a bear-thats my take on it-too much risk for the lion in the lions point of view.

Ted, did you read my post before last?...i showed records of the bone density of the lion, from actual, proven studies, as compared with the bear...those of the lion are rather dense...but, incase you missed it; 
 
 
 
Here it is, again; 
 
 
 
Bone density;  
 
 
 
http://www.scribd.com/doc/20440323/1304649-1254335844  
 
 
 
Here`s even more on the bone density of lions;  
 
 
 
http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/51/master/1/  
 
 
 
here is more info which suggests the lion would be able to execute a more effective immediate attack;  
 
 
 
http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/14  
 
 
 
there you go..... 
 
 
 
also, the california grizzlies never killed lions with one paw swipe.....that is bull.....for one thing, lions don`t just 'rush' into battle, they are calculation fighters, according to Beatty, and surely more than a match for many a brown bear. 
 
 
 
 
 

ATTILA - 
 
 
 
I agree that in the wild the Lion would avoid the Grizzly. However, in the 1800s the Lions were placed into a pit or arena with the Bears so they probably had no choice but to fight and die.

yes i'm glad you've said you watch national geographic which shows lions fighting other lions, because it proves my point... lions only bite other lions noses to kill them, however they only bite the noses because the mane prevents a lion from grabbing the throat. 
 
 
 
when faced with other opponents such as buffalo which weigh in at about an average of 1400 pounds they will first go for the back and if that doesn't work they will grip the throat. 
 
 
 
gripping the nose of a larger prey is way too inefficient they will not 'fight' the bear in the same manner they fight lions, because they don't have a mane so gripping the throat will close off the bears air supply and kill it in a matter of seconds. 
 
 
 
how is it easy fr a bear to knock a lion off balance? are you suggesting that a bear will be able to stop a 450 - 500 pound lion in mid jump, and throw it off balance? 
 
 
 
as for jaw power, you've already told me you watch national geographic, and both national geographic and animal planet found a lions jaw power averages 1000 pounds, brady measured one lion and one hyena he didn't take an average... because there are some lions who even reach up to 1500 pounds. 
 
 
 
jaw power is found in how wide the jaw is a bears jaw is narrow which suggests a low power in bite. 
 
 
 
lower body? i don't think so, bears don't have particularly strong legs, that's why they don't walk on them and it's why it makes it's fighting style so inefficient against a lion if a lion was to jump at a bear it is more likely that the bear would lose it's balance. 
 
 
 

Oliver, 
 
 
 
Common sense! Any land animal has it's balance compromised when airborne. If you ever played contact sports, boxed/martial arts you would know this.  
 
 
 
I know we are talking about cats; but even their balance is compromised when they are airborne as compared to standing on all fours. 
 
 
 
"The Bear will lose it's balance." Are you kidding me? The bear will slap the Lion silly and smother it LOL.. 
 
 
 
The bottom line: Any of the Big 4 subspecies/species of bear I listed will knock the Lion down and pounce on it. Their Lower Body (ass, Back, Shoulders, arms are just too powerfull. 
 
 
 
I have already cited witness in earlier comments; the Grizzly Almanac for starters. I also cited Gold Miners from 1800-1850s observing and documenting Grizzly vs. Lions in combat. The Grizzly always wins! 
 
 
 
If you think the Gold Miners and others were lying; so be it. 
 
 
 
Jaw pressure: Your measurments OR others are greatly exageratted! Tests do not state the Average bite force of a Lion is 1000Lbs. PSI. 
 
 
 
AVERAGE was about 650 Lbs. Brady, National Geo, Animal Planet & other experts have listed the Lions bite force at around 650 Lbs.PSI. The Hyena & Snapping Turtle reached 1000 Lbs. not the Lion. As I have mentioned before; bite force is very difficult to accurrately measure due to the circumstances in which they are taken. 
 
 
 
The Bears Lower Body: You think the Bears lower body is weak? You are kidding right?  
 
 
 
Bears stand & walk much better on their HIND legs than a Male Lion on it's HIND legs LOL.. 
 
 
 
I don't only watch National Geo on TV. In earlier comments Damon asked for my experiential resume LOL... You can look it up if you want.  
 
 
 
At Kodiak Island & Katmai National Park, I have seen IN PERSON 800-1200LB. Bears stand staight up on their HIND legs and brutally punish one another. While with Alaskan Dept. Fish & Game I have seen up close a 900Lb. bear (yes park rangers do keep track of individual bears) with 10 by 6 inch pieces of flesh ripped of his hide while fighting during a Salmon run. And these are not even fights to the death; they are for the best fishing spots. 
 
 
 
Do you know why two bears will stand while confronting one another? If to the death; one bear will try to use it's jaw to brake the other bears jaw. Tell me bears don't have strong jaws. Thease Bears have huge skulls which translates to powerfull jaws. 
 
 
 
OK! No more from me; I am done.  
 
 
 
However, I expect you will respond! So; if you are the Lion and I the bear; maybe Lions can out last bears LOL..

Oliver, 
 
I have studied bears for 23 years from reading books, talking to hunters in "bear country" and watched documentaries on them, and even talked to one bear specialist-you are incorrect in your assertions of what they can and cannot do-Ted is right about what happened when lions were brought over here in the 1st half of the 18th century when they were obliterated by Grizzly's. Oh they have their limits, but they will overcome all other predators, thats why they don't compete with any other North American predator-there used to be lions here, too, but the short-face bear wiped them out before modern bears appeared. 
 
Also, the bite force comparison you gave is wrong-Hyena's have stronger jaws than lions and you cite one as having more bite force at 1,500 lbs-very innaccurate-lions are around 600 psi-bite force is based on the skull and the bone, tissue and muscle mass around the jaw/skull hinge area-the bear has much more developement in that area. 
 
Another farce is the bear will somehow just surrender its back to the lion-bears encounter mountain lions and win if they choose to engage, shich sometimes they do and sometimes they don't-but that is ultimately up to the bear, as it is the top superpredator. 
 
In answer ot your question, yes-the bear could knock the lion off kilter if in air. Did I mention Grizzly's have 5-6 in long claws, and are super fast swipers? Ya. The power of the bear is tremendous, not knocking lions, but bears are more powerfully engineered and are the tanks of predatory animals. Grizzly almanac is a great source of information. Sometimes, not very often, they slowly lumber off due to a large pack of wolves (as if to say, "I'm the King, and only leave because it is my wish, not thorugh fear of any animal")but not if the bear is hungry-then it fights. 
 
Bears are extremely powerful on their hind legs-thats why they use them to look, scratch their backs on trees, and as fighting-thats one way they DO fight. Also, the Grizzly's shoulder hump is pure muscle giving them devastating power in their arms and swipes-thats why they break elk and moose necks with paw swipe blows. Its part of their arsenal. If you have questions about bears, perhaps I can help and answer your questions-but as far as a fight between the two its hypothetical, I'm positive either the bear would win or lion not engage because it knows when its met its match. Know this however, the two have faced off before with the bear being top predator in North America and running of lions and also when the lions were brought over in the early to mid 1800's, the bears won again-its reasonable to conclude the winner will again be the bear. 
 
ATTILA

ATTILA, bite force is actually measured in lbs, not psi, as a bite force of 600 psi is rather extreme...easily greater than any living animal today. 
 
Also, Brady Barr measured the bite force of a young male lion, not yet full grown, that had a bite force of 691 lbs, to be exact. 
 
A study from Dr. Wroe indicates the bite force of a lion would be greater than that of a bear. Check it out, here; 
 
http://intern.forskning.no/dokumenter/wroe.pdf 
 
Even though the bite forces are derived from the skulls of these animals, and usually i don`t agree with estimates, but, in this case, i would agree as cats are designed for rather high bite forces. 
 
and, everyone get the idea that the california grizzlies killed african lions from the lairwebs site.....well, i find it hard to believe as it stated that the grizzlies killed the lions with a single blow, and that it was due to enormously strong bone density meeting a low density skull. Well, studies actually indicate the bone density of lions is rather extreme, more so than a brown bear, as well.  
 
And, even in terms of muscle mass, cats have been found to have the greatest of any mammals yet studied, especially the lion, who, in one study had the greatest muscle percentage of any mammal.

well ted before you say i'm exaggerating check this video i found on youtube: 
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxh5GGSGmgQ 
 
 
 
that states both national geographic and animal planet both saying that a lions bite force is about 1000 lbs 
 
 
 
and attilla here is the website: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Wild-Animals-705/Animal-Bite-Force.htm 
 
 
 
that was only taken from one male lion though and is not an average, the average as stated by both national geographic and animal planet is 1000 lbs, brady measured one lion and did not take an average. 
 
 
 
ted it's not that a bears lower body is weak, it's that the way a bear fights that makes it ineffective against a lion, if a 450 - 500 lbs lion were t pounce the bear would be knocked off balance from it's hind legs a bear only maintain proper balance on all 4's. 
 
 
 
as for the california pit fights, i don't doubt the bear won but i do doubt that they killed the lion quite as easily as is stated 
 
 
 
also there are quite a few records of lions killing polar bears and grizzly bears which i've looked up. 
 
 
 
also you are right that the bear has a large skull, but the size of the skull alone isn't enough to determine how powerful a bite an animal would have it's how wide the jaw is and bears have particularly narrow jaws which indicates a low bite force. 
 
 
 
Attilla,  
 
 
 
no the bear would not 'surrender' it's back to the lion, but the lions superior agility and explosive speed will allow the lion to get fairly easily to the back, plus a lion spends a part first circling a bear, if the bear doesn't follow it's movements its weak points will be exposed to the lion. 
 
 
 
but i doubt the back would really work so i suppose they would try to clamp the bears throat. 
 
 
 
you are far overestimating a bears strength if you think they will be able to knock a lion off balance in mid jump. 
 
 
 

Thanks Oliver. 
 
I do agree with that a lion would try to attack the bear from behind, jump on its back and get a strong grip with its claws while mauling the bear with its canines. I can also believe that a lion may be able to knock a bear of comparable size off its feet. After all, this is how lions routinely attack animals which are considerably taller and heavier than they, such as buffaloes (often), hippos (occasionally) and elephants (very rarely). Against such big herbivores, this method works fairly effectively, but bears constitute a very different case in one crucial respect. Namely, a buffalo or hippo, let alone a giraffe, cannot fight effectively any more if the lion managed to knock it off its feet and pin it to the ground. In contrast, bears and big cats immediately roll on their back and start slashing furiously with all four legs, aiming at the head of the opponent. Figuratively, the weaponry of a herbivore is dramatically reduced if the animal is down, but that of a carnivore actually increases, since in a normal stance, a bear or big cat would use only its jaws and front paws.  
 

Just when I thought I was out; you guys pull me back in LOL... 
 
 
 
Oliver, As I stated earlier, I don't put much stock into the bite force tests. A Croc, Gator, Snapping Turtle; Yes! It is a natural response for those animals. 
 
 
 
However, the big cats, bears etc.. are hard to accuratly measure. One zoologist stated the Lion's bite force was 400Lbs. which I agree is way too low. 
 
 
 
However, such an encounter of these great animals would not be decided by jaw strength. 
 
 
 
Also, accounts of Lions killing Polar Bears are a bit misleading. If you want read below my response to Damon. 
 
 
 
DAMON, you crack me up! Lairweb sites? Never heard of it! I cited book, Pg.109 and the Park Rangers name.  
 
 
 
The site you gave me does mention "Brutus the Lion." However, the newspaper clipings never stated the age, gender, size of the Polar Bear. Also the two different clippings are a bit inconsistent.  
 
 
 
The other Lion killed a "Cinnamon Bear" LOL... they are much like the Black Bear. Not even close to the Big 4. 
 
 
 
Point: I have never seen or heard of a fully Adult TRAINED Male Polar Bear. They are the most unpredictable bears of all! The graet bear Bart (I believe Kodiak not Grizzly) was well trained. However, a Male Polar Bear would be much more dificult to trust. 
 
 
 
Your best argument would be the fact that Amur/Siberian Male Tigers 600++Lbs. have been documented killing large Kamchhatka Brown Bears. These bears can reach 1000Lbs. The method of attack would most likely be by stealth. 
 
 
 
In conclusion: I must admit the adult Male Lion is an awsome creature. I have not given the Big Cat it's due respect. I am quite certain this site is much too generous to the Black Bear with regards to size. 
 
 
 
However, I still believe with good reason the "Big 4 Bears" I list would win more often. Not 100% of the time; but a good majority of the time. 
 
 
 
Goodnight to all! 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Ted, i posted another variation of that lion vs polar bear account, somewhere on this topic, and it was mentioned the bear was male...i`ll try to find it. 
 
Likewise, that article didn`t mention the age, gender, or condition of the lion so...... 
 
Lions are actually the most combative of the carnivora...... 
 
and, few, if any siberians have been measured at 600 lbs or more, and average weights by the siberian tiger project was 169 kg, for 11 secimens. 
 
I also have a record of a leopard killing a poar bear, as unlikely as it seems....i`ll show it if you`re interested....

I doubt if the relative muscle mass of a lion exceeds of that a bear unless the bear's more robust bones and its layers of fat are calculated as a disadvantage. But even if some mathematical calculation yields such a result, it would simply mean that lions outperform bears in sprinting, tree climbing and particularly jumping, because their body is relatively less heavy and far more flexible. But a lion would hardly able to lift and throw a heavy opponent in the same way as a bear would routinely do. Bears which were trained to wrestle humans had a standard tactic to deal with a strong opponent who got them in a headlock or some other strong grip: they simply lifted the guy from the ground and throw him a meter or two. Of course this trick is more devastating if applied to a human wrestler than to a big cat which knows much better how to fall and how to recover from being thrown, but it nevertheless reveals what the muscle mass of a bear can achieve. I doubt if lions would be able to move boulders with the same ease as bears routinely do.

Balazs, a lion, in comparison to a grizzly bear, anyway, would have the same percentage of muscle mass, given they are virtually equal in mass. Of course, grizzlies can, and do sometime grow much larger, but, in terms of average weights (and, i have many scientifically published documents upon this) they were rather similar. 
 
And, a lion is simply not built the way a bear is....but, i doubt they are of less strength...anyway, here is that study; 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/books-90.png 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/books_002-80.png 
 
There you go. 

Balazs, 
 
 
 
whilst you are right lions fighting herbivores in such manners, you can't deny that a cape buffalo has far greater muscle mass than a lion and a bear, and is well equipped to kill (which has been documented before) 
 
don't think that just because they're herbivores buffalos don't get into fights they live in herds so when it comes to combat a buffalo doesn't tend to be an amateur... they have strong back legs which they use to kick and deadly horns. 
 
 
 
and a lion tends to use it's whole body in a fight not just it's front paws and jaws. 
 
 
 
Ted, 
 
 
 
bite force isn't just tested by biting on a stick, a more accurate test is taken by experts such as animal planet by using animal skulls or artificial copies. 
 
 
 
I do believe that the jaw power of a lion would be the deciding facter whether it wins or loses in this particular fight, lions only use 20% of their jaw power to close off a buffalos windpipe i don't think it would take much more to close off a bears. 
 
 
 
I don't think that the accounts of lions killing polar bears are misleading, they are just as reliable as the california pit fights (again i don't think that the lion kills the polar bear quite as easily as is stated) but it at least proves that bears are not able to ''swat a lion back to africa''. 
 
 
 
i also believe that in the california pit fights they were quite unfair, and more misleading, for example i know that before the lions were brought in there were many fights of bears vs bull, so the bear already had a lot of fighting experience (something that would not be usual in the wild for a bear)... also the bear had been there for a while in comparison to a lion who had just been taken out of his enviroment and shipped for days across the sea... it put the lion at quite a disadvantage in comparison to the bear. 
 
 
 
and you are quite entitled to your opinion that bears would win but i will remain at 60/40 in the lions favour or possibly 50/50.

Oliver,  
 
 
 
Go to "Interspecies Conflict, Jhon Silva BIG CAT expert." Look at his recent answers to my question. 
 
 
 
Ted

Oliver,  
 
 
 
Sorry, John not Jhon! All this writing and I can't spell worth a damn. 
 
 
 
Ted

Oliver, 
 
 
 
If you can't find the post; it may not come up until tomorrow.  
 
 
 
However,my email: Tedfio1@aol.com. I would be glad to forward the Big Cat expert's answer. 
 
 
 
Rather Interesting!

Oliver, 
 
you forget to take into account that bears are explosive just as is the lion-thats how their attacks are carried out. As i stated before, they are quite used to standing up and fighting as well-superior advantage is gained from an elevated position, just like in military strategy-its part of the bears already impressive arsenal, its already played out though that Grizzly's killed all the lions brought over in the 1800's.  
 
I've also just read about bite force and watched a documentary last night and they stated the mastiff has a bite force of 550 lbs(a dog)close to that of a lion. Its due to their massive skulls and make-up of their jaws in relation to the skull-which bears have the most massive skulls of all carnivores. The program from which I derived that bit if information was on prehistoric predators; the wolf (Dire wolf)Also, the program following was of the largest predator since teh dinosaurs-the short-face bear, or bulldog bear, which was twice the size of a Grizzly almost, standing on all fours it was 6 ft tall at the shoulders and wiped out lions, fought off saber-tooth cats and dire wolves stealing thier kills from them-it was supreme in North America and that as well as disease brought over by mankind dangerous to animals is why there are no American lions anymore. I stated before that this is all quite hypothetical, but bears did win in the past, and in my opinion and people who work with bears agree, that the bear is the supreme land hyperpredator on earth and that IF the lion chose to engage(not really sure if they would even want to face such a massive fellow carnivore as a bear if given the option of retreating)then it would surely lose to the bears power which you are severely underestimating.

i don't think you should go to that particular website for a conclusive answer for example i have another answer from another expert on the same website who says almost the exact same thing as i did on the subject (60/40 or possibly 50/50 depending on how the bear reacts). 
 
 
 
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Interspecies-Conflict-3754/2008/1/lion-vs-bear-grizzly.htm 
 
 
 
he, like myself believes a lion would be victorius most of the time depending on how the bear reacts.

Oliver, 
 
 
 
I don't think any of us have a CONCLUSIVE answer. 
 
 
 
However, this guy describes himself as a "BIG CAT" expert! He has no reason other than objectivity for supporting my views. 
 
 
 
You should at least read what he says. If you disagree with him then I guess the two of you are BIG CAT guys who disagree.  
 
 
 
Again, I listed my email and would be more than happy to forward his comments. 
 
 
 

I agree with that only in regards to the black bear-not the mighty Grizzly, king of the mountains. Teh Grizzly, like the lion, has an attitude that inequivically exudes "nothing can beat me, I am the biggest, the baddest" and that is an energy other animals can feel-just like wolves, mountain lions and even the badly tempered moose. I think in all probability, that the lion would choose NOT to fight if in the wild, it would merely avoid the Grizzly and probably the black bear as well, as it is another large predator which can injure or kill the lion and in the wild, you don't risk those things as your survival depends on the risks you take. I would say, Grizzly would win, but we all have our opinions. Prehistoric bears always did win.

Attila, 
 
 
 
Good stuff! Did it mention what kind of Mastiff? I have a 95Lb. American Pit Bull; The Zoologist Barr??? (I think that is his name used a 60-65Lb. Pit Bull for his test.  
 
 
 
I would think A bigger Pit Bull is going to produce greater bite force especially when it is hanging onto something in mid air. 
 
 
 
Also individual dogs of the same breed may bite a bit different. Some Pit Bulls can hang in the air for an hour clamping down on a rope. This requires not only power but great stamina. Other Pit Bulls, like a human boxer, bite with jabs and tear. My dog was bred in Texas and used for hunting large boar. Pit Bulls make great hunters when trained properly. 
 
 
 
Sorry for getting off topic. You got me going with the Mastiff bite force LOL.. 
 
 
 
Thanks, 
 
Ted 
 

Ted; 
 
ja, the mastiff was an English Mastiff, and they were trying to show examples of how the Dire Wolf attacked. In this, they used a Pitbull, an English Mastiff, a Belgian Shepherd and I believe a Rottweiler. They were showing how the Mastiff used its bulk and body mass to knock an opponant to the ground all the while savaging the prey with its jaws, when they gave it's biteforce, it was 550 lbs. 
 
A site you may like in regards to pitbulls, is; www.xtremepitbulls.com/ 
 
These guys are tanks! I've got a Red Heeler. 
 
I also apologize for getting off the subject, but others here if reading my posts know where I irreversably stand on the subject on bear vs lion, like I said, its hypothetical now as they do not meet in the wild, but that is due to past battles of bear winning over lion. I do like cats also, but they have their limitations, and those limitations can be seen when matching them up with the real king-the bear(only the polar bear is the true largest carnivore as other bears are omnivores, although it makes other bears no less dangerous as they will eat anything that will fit into its gullet)Bears have their limitations as well, but when matching them up against lions, unlike lions, you see really how much of a top-of-the-predator, king-of-the-mountain so to speak they really are and their prowess really shows when you start comparing. 
 
My favorite big cats are Tiger, Lion and Jaguar(strongest jaws in the big cats I've read in my Big Cats book) While on the subject of biteforce, Hyena IS the king (or queen, actually) of land mammals.

Attila, 
 
 
 
Thanks much, Great Site! 
 
 
 
I also like all the amimals we have been discussing. However, my money is on the Big Bears when it comes to combat. 
 
 
 
Take care, 
 
Ted

Atilla, 
 
 
 
Bears are not as explosive as lions, it is quite physically impossible for hem to be so... i think you're confusing explosive with agression, bears CAN be just as agressive as lions but on average in a fight the lion would be the agressor. 
 
 
 
what i mean by explosivness is how fast, and agressively the lion reacts in a short space of time, when a lion pounces a bear simply would not be able to react fast enough to fend the lion away. 
 
 
 
and i notice you say 'all the lions' there are actually only 2 cases of bears killing a lion in such a manner in the california pit fights, the rest were recorded as bloody fights. 
 
 
 
if i'm not mistaken however the bears in the california pit fights had been there for quite some time already and had already gained combative experience (this is something which they would not have in the wild), they also had settled in another advantage of being there for that time as apose to the lion who had just been shipped out from africa and pitted against the bear almost as soon as they got there. 
 
 
 
and although these are instances of bears killing lions, you are forgetting the various other fights between lions and polar bears in which the lion won every time. 
 
 
 
you are quite mistaken about jaw power; both national geographic and animal planet have observed the lions jaw power being at an averag of 1000lbs, the key to working out jaw power is NOT in immediate relation to the size of the skull... it is the size of the JAWS that is the key to working it out, observe a bears jaw in comparison to a lions, the bears jaw is narrow and short, however a lions jaw is big and wide. 
 
 
 
conclusive to this it is highly unlikely a lion would back down from a fight with any bear in fact it is much more likely that a grizzly would back down from a lion, not only does the mane give a lion an intimidating appearance grizzly bears have been observed backing down to a mountain cat. 
 
 
 
i think you are seriously overestimating a bears power. 
 
 
 
Ted, 
 
 
 
i've already looked at his views i know that he backs a bear, however if you would take the time to look at the same website i provided you with a different expert answering the question you will see that there is much variation amongst these experts opinions so i'll ask you not to quote it as a conclusive 'expert' opinion. 
 
 
 
i gave you the site please take your time to read it.

oh and by the way if you want proof of what i say that 'grizzly bears have been observed backing down to mountain cats' 
 
 
 
watch this youtube video 
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr0o8zRmub4 
 
 
 
mountain cats are 2 times smaller than lions in regards to size and 3 times smaller in terms of weight. 
 
 
 
and in that video not only does the grizzly back down it runs away.

Oliver, 
 
 
 
I never used the words "Conclusive expert opinion" to prove my point." In fact I said the opposite. Read my earlier comments! "I don't think any of us have a CONCLUSIVE answer." 
 
 
 
However, John Silva calls himself a Big Cat expert. He also says the Big Bears I mentioed would defeat the lion without much problem. 
 
 
 
The Lion does not stack up well against the Big Bear; as I said earlier the Tiger does better in Siberia. Have you read exactly what John Silva has written? He contradicts everything that you have written.  
 
 
 
Can you find a BEAR EXPERT to agree with you that the Male Lion will defeat the Male of 
 
the "BIG 4 BEARS" I have listed a majority of the time? I highly doubt it! 
 
 
 
From the posts I read, I think due to bias & passion Lion Lovers want to hold on to the falicy Lions are "King of the Jungle."  
 
 
 
However,in my opinion, those who choose the Big Bears do so more out of objective reasoning. Attila and I both have admitted we enjoy the Big Cats. I don't favor the Bear over the Lion or Tiger in regard to unconditional loyalty. Yet Lion lovers on this site seem hard pressed to give the Big Bears some love LOL..  
 
 
 
As far as I am concerned we are just going in circles. I am confident the Big Bears would win 8 times out of 10. 
 
 
 
Also, I find it hard to believe you actually believe Lions could defeat Mature Polar Bears everytime. I don't think you really believe that or do you? 
 
 
 
As for the Bears gaining experience fighting bulls; nonsense! First, Bears fight eachother all the time; they don't need such experience! Second, the bears would have suffered injuries from the powerfull Bulls so it would actually have worked against them in their fights with Lions. 
 
 
 
I also do agree the Lions would have suffered from their journey fron Africa to the U.S. 
 
 
 
Lastly, you are getting desperate with the Mountain Lion LOL... I have watched that video several times and enjoy the fact that the Mountain Lion/Cougar stood it's ground to protect it's cub.  
 
 
 
However, did you really watch the Bear. That was a good sized Grizzly; all he did was shake his head and back allowing the Cat to (as someone else has said) scratch his back LOL.. 
 
 
 
If that Grizzly wanted to kill that Mountain Lion; it easily could have. However, the Grizzly was not about to fight over the little cub. I believe you are smart enough to know that. 
 
 
 
Heck, I was rooting for the Mountain Lion to defend the cub. It was a great video! 
 
 
 
The bottom line: The Big Bears rule! Even some Big Cat experts admit that.

ATTILA, there is no actual documentation of grizzlies having killed lions in the 1800`s. There is only second hand info, and, i find it hard tio believe, as most state the bears killed the lions with a single blow, due to their denser bone structure...but, it has actually been shown that the big cats have an immensely dense bone structure, and more so than those of the bears, and this is particularly the case with lions (i have records for this). 
 
And, the skulls of a bear is scarcely more massive than that of the lion`s......and, i do have records upon this as well....the figures were similar. 
 
I think the lion would usually win...there is even a case where a leopard has killed a polar bear..... 
 

Yes, I've seen that, there are also accounts to where when teh bear chooses to, its severely injured mountain lions, I say severely injured and not killed due to the fact of the mountain lion running for its life-in that vid, the lion was protecting its young which you don't see-this has been around. 
 
Lions probably would avoid at all costs the Grizzly, if not, the lion would be for the surprise of its life just as the 1800's lions, and the lions of the pliacean age when confronted by Bears. Actually, mountain lions can be 300 lbs, so they are not 2 times smaller, but are around similar size and weights as are lionesses, only cougars are reportedly more ferocious. Lions have been observed backing away from a jaguar in a zoo-the male lion could't scramble away fast enough!! He nearly jumped out of his skin! Grizzly's have also backed away from wolverines, even though they could easily kill it-its on the bears terms as it holds top standing as a predator-whatever it chooses to happen happens, if it wants to engage or go away, its the bears choice not the other way around-wolverines have also sent cougars away with their tails between their legs as well as taking on wolves, as they would tangle with a lion as wellAlso, bears skulls as well as jaws are more powerfully built than any of the big cats-even tigers which are credited with strongest biteforce of the big cats. Lions have NEVER been credited with 1000 lbs of biteforce, Hyena has and they are known throughout the world of science as having the strongest mammalian biteforce, period. No one's overestimating bears, but you are underestimating them-go see one in person as I have-I've seen this guy in WA 900 plus pound Grizzly, and it is just awesome to see such incredible power of these superpredators-you should see how truly giant they are when standing up, they're big enough on all fours!! Teh ppolar bear story has not been credited as being accurate and its only been reported as happening once. Bears in the wild continuously combat each other for mates, food and fishing spots-they have combat experience already in their impressive resume to answer your take on the california fights. Those bears were natural Grizzly's just taken from the wild-not taught fighting, so you are mistaken abou that as well besides jaw power. 
 
Bears are and especially Grizzly's agressive and are exposive-thats how they can run between 35-40 mph-only canids have stamina and are the marathoners of the animal kingdom chasing prey till prey dies or drops of exhaustion-packs of wild dogs have been seen doing this to mountain lions and killing the big cat in this way. Then, unlike cats, dogs don't kill before eating-they are far more brutal-they eat their victims while they are still alive starting with eating the stomach. 
 
Bears are quite fast with their paws, and would be ready for the lions assault and would overmatch the lion-a tiger even has a faster pawswioe than lions-look at those videos of lions and tigers in the same enclosure in korean zoos that you can see on youtube with the tiger out-swiping lions-the lions were not breaking any records, I'll tell you that. Its not physically impossible for bears to be explosive-thats what they are as described in documentaries, books and by biologists as well as by trainers-they're just quick like that-they all agree don't be fooled by their appeaarance of being slow-they're not!

Yep, bears are not slow at all. There are documented cases of grizzlies outrunning and killing bison calves, and even adult bisons, in the Yellowstone Park, and this is a feat that only a fast, strong and bold predator can accomplish. Here is a description of a largely successful bear attack on an adult bison bull -largely, I say, because the bear could not kill immediately the badly injured bull but the latter would have died anyway: 
http://www.greateryellowstonescience.org/files/pdf/YS_Wyman.pdf

Thanks Oliver. It is absolutely true that Cape buffaloes are formidable opponents, and usually several lions are needed to kill a single adult bull. Still, they become quite vulnerable once the lions manage to knock them off their feet, and predators (both big cats and bears) apparently know this all too well. They routinely attack the prey's hind legs with well-aimed paw swipes, against which the buffalo may defend itself by kicking but it is definitely at a disadvantage, since its formidable horns are on the other side.:) In contrast, a bear is by no means defeated if it is down. On the contrary, this situation is likely to lead to close-up combat in which the bear has actually better chances than in mobile warfare.:)

Ted, 
 
 
 
you did not say it but it was certainly implied in your first post... you thought you had a good argument by getting a 'big cat expert' to agree with you, however if you take a look at the link i gave you, you'll see on the very same website a diffrent expert actually agrees 100% with myself. 
 
 
 
don't assume that someone is being bias just because they disagree with you, there is actually a much greater argument for why the lion would win over the bear. 
 
 
 
and you really need to read what i said more carefully, i said that a lions favour over the bear is 60/40 and possibly 50/50 depending on how the bear reacts. 
 
i'm fairly certain however that you consider the bear to be this monsterous beast-like creature when in fact the only advantage it has over a lion is it's considerable weight so therefore strength. 
 
 
 
and in turn by the way you're talking you consider a lion to be a defenceless kitty in comparison. 
 
 
 
yes, a bear does not gain a great ammount of fighting experience in the wild it is highly uncommon for it to come into conflict with other grizzlies, and black bears just tend to run away if they see one... wheras lions spend most of their life fighting and like to fight whenever they can, they are more practiced and more confident. 
 
and i don't think they'd put an injured bear in the pit to fight. 
 
 
 
and it isn't deperate, i wasn't showing it to tell you that a cougar is dominant in a fight i was replying to atillas 'lions will avoid a fight with a bear at all costs' point because this is very far from the truth... in reality it is bears who will avoid fights with lions because if they run away from a cougar who is 3 times smaller in terms of weight and 2 times smaller in terms of size then it will most certainly avoid conflict with a sub saharan lion. 
 
 
 
and not only will it avoid conflict because of the lions size, the lions mane also gives it a distinct psychological advantage not to mention his huge roar which can be heard up to 5 miles away.

Atilla, 
 
 
 
lions would not avoid grizzlies at all costs, lions are well known for taking on any challenger and only backing down when it has already been beaten. 
 
 
 
however the point was if bears run away from mountain cats, then it is almost silly to think that they will not do the same with a sub saharan lion. 
 
 
 
there is no records of mountain cats ever weighing 300 lbs 
 
 
 
the average weight for a mountain cat is 137 lbs, the average size is 2 feet at the shoulder and typically around 5 - 6 feet long (without tail) 
 
 
 
the average weight for a subsaharan lion is somewhere between 450 - 500 lbs, they are 4 feet tall at the shoulder and typically 8 - 9 feet long (without tail). 
 
 
 
grizzly bears weigh in at around 500 - 750 lbs, they stand 3 foot high at the shoulder and are typically 6 - 8 foot standing on their hind legs 
 
 
 
and i've also seen the video you are refering to, the lion does not run away from the jaguar the lion runs away from the jaguars roar, there is a huge wall separating them and they could not see what was on the other side, however i'm sure that you don't even believe that a lion would run away from a jaguar if he saw what was on the other side of that wall. 
 
 
 
and before you say lions have never been credited with 1000 lbs of bite force please watch this video: 
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxh5GGSGmgQ 
 
 
 
just for a heads up that states that both national geographic and animal planet found the average lions bite force to be 1000 lbs. 
 
 
 
grizzlies do not often fight in the wild it is quite uncommon for them to do so, and quite obviously you don't know much about the california pit fights the bears had already been there for months fighting bulls and other bears. 
 
 
 
and i still don't think you're getting what i mean by explosiveness; bears can reach 35 mph at running, however when you are fighting you don't run, explosiveness refers to how quickly and agressively you can react. 
 
 
 
for example lions can reach 50 mph in a matter of seconds this means that when it comes to conflict the lion will react much more quickly than the bear and not only that lions are noted for their high ammounts of testosterone which means they will also react very agressivly giving the bear little time to react. 
 
 
 
and actually it was not just one polar bear that was killed various polar bears fought lions and were beaten almost every time... these fights are just as reliable as the california pit fights. 
 
 
 
bears are fast with their paws but compared with the speed of a lion it is not, and for your own education lions and tigers have the same speed in swipes. 
 
 
 
i did not say it was physically impossible for bears to be explosive, anything can be explosive, what i said was it's physically impossible for the bear to be as explosive as a lion.

by the way lions do also sometimes stand on their hind legs to fight, and if you add their 4 feet in the legs onto their 8 - 9 foot body length you will get a 12 - 13 foot lion.

Oliver, 
 
 
 
Dream On! LOL..

likewise

Oliver, You stated complete farces about mountain lions and bears-let me set you straight-that was one instance of a Grizzly with a cougar. "there is actually a much greater argument for why the lion would win over the bear"-WRONG-quite teh opposite is the truth-Bears wiped lions out in North America, and bears roar too, something lions have not contended with and that would work against the lion as they may be taken aback, if not, it would certainly give pause which also work against a lion-either way-in the bears favor. 
 
You severely overestimate lions-a skinny goddamn kenyan killed one with his bare hands for the gods sake-tehn was killed by Hyenas. 
 
Jaguars are scrappers, the lion might have met his match in that particular cat-that proves my point above about the bear's roar in effect to the lion, which obviously was scared of the new sound, case in point. 
 
Grizzly's and other bears are explosive from start til they reach their opponant-and Grizzly's and Brown and Kodiaks DO FIGHT all the time-I studied them for over 23 years-yes sir they combat continually-I don't know where you are getting these highly innacurate statements from but they are 100% wrong-I'm telling you. 
 
Back to the mountain lion thing; they are teh size of a lioness. Lions never stand vertically to fight, either, they are incappable of that because their hind legs design is like a dogs-they don't go straight like a bears-so you're wrong about that-if they stood up, it would be at a diagnal stance, not straight up-and no lion is 13 ft tall-thats preposterous! Tigers are faster swipers and use both because they use their haunches on which to sit so they have two free paws with which to swipe-I can send you the videos of this proof-there are plenty, but we are talking bears which have FAR more muscle with which to deliver fatal blows coupled with longer, stronger claws that are 5-6 inches long. 
 
The cali fights are documented and are as true as the gold rush. Polar bear happened once, and people back then handicapped bears by chaining them when fighting other species because other species cost so much money back then to import, that they wanted to make it last as an investment and didn't want the bear to immediately destroy it and cause them a loss-bears were handicappped almost everytime-called bearbaiting. 
 
That link you provided was wrong-lions do not have 1000 obs biteforce-thats the Hyena, just because some random clown gives a botched test doesn't confirm it as hard science! 
 
Here's some vids for everyone to watch!; 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3UWkFsEo3s&feature=related 
 
and this is biteforce; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByAL6vGsQL8&feature=fvw 
 
this is tiger/jaguar/lin biteforce-if you are bored by teh pics, to to 3:05 on the video; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0lNicfjdVQ&feature=related 
 
This is paw-swipes; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP_e9eMgpjU&feature=related (its sad to see eh conditions the koreans have made these cats live in, the lions do not look happy, its sad, really, they should have a place to live in which they are happy. 
 
Here is two male lions fighting in slow-motion so you can analyze their movements; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQPSy47Oq7U&feature=related 
 
Here are Grizzly's fighting-notice how they use thier massive strength and weight to their advantage! 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGwUpM9QryU&feature=fvw 
 
here are a couple different others; 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iLa6zVdW40 
 

 
 
Male lion jumps out of his skin from jaguar;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yVDUUtHxS4&feature=related 
 

I'm not sure how you can deny how a bear would most probably run away from a sub saharan lion if they have been ocumented running away from cougars, it isn't just one instance there are many documented cases of grizzly bears avoiding conflict with cougars who are always ready to fight... 
 
 
 
bears can roar, but it's not nearly as loud or as intimidating as a lion, and you say a roar isn't something lions contend with? are you forgetting that lions fight other lions almost daily... 
 
 
 
it doesn't prove your point, the lions weren't expecting a jaguar to roar and they were suprised and scared, however you should know if they saw what it was making that noise they wouldn't have been scared in the slightest. 
 
 
 
you're suggesting that a human can take on a lion? now that's just delusional... 
 
 
 
and you still do not seem to get what i mean by explosive, whilst bears can be explosive it is physically impossible for them to be as explosive as a lion, a bear simply cannot react quickly enough to stop a lion from attacking first and most agressively. 
 
 
 
no, grizzly bears are agressive but they do not fight all the time, the only fight practice they get is coming into conflict with wolves it is highly uncommon for a bear to fight another bear. 
 
 
 
cougars are nowhere near the size of a lioness, even a fully grown male jaguar does not average the same size as a lioness... and just by you so unwisely stating so it shows me that you know nothing of the cougar. 
 
 
 
cougars average 137 lbs... lionesses averages 350 lbs, cougars stand 2 feet from the ground lionesses stand 3 - 4 feet off the ground... cougars average 6 feet long whilst lionesses average 7 - 8 feet long. 
 
 
 
please check this out for more information on cougars: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cougar 
 
 
 
they are nowhere near the size of a lioness so i have no idea where you are getting your information wrong but it is quite false. 
 
 
 
you think lions don't stand on their hind legs to fight? check this out please: http://animals.timduru.org/dirlist/lions/2MaleLions-Fighting.jpg 
 
 
 
how is it false? if an 8 or 9 foot long male lion stands on it's 4 foot hind legs, even at a diagonal stance the lion will reach 12 feet tall. 
 
 
 
and tigers being able to easily stand on their hind legs does not make them faster swipers, when tigers stand on their hind legs they do not 'swipe' they 'box' animal planet has already documented that a lion and tigers sped in swiping is the same. 
 
 
 
you seem to be under the delusion that because grizzly bears weigh more it is 'pure muscle' nothing could be further from the truth, for starters they mainly reside in canada which they have to have a lot of fat to survive on that's a scientific fact, and not only that in the canadian winter time the bears have to pack on 100's of kilograms of fat just to stay alive, granted grizzly bears are not weak but they are certainly not all muscle... if you have studied bears for 23 years you need a booster session. 
 
 
 
the californian fights only documented 2 cases of bears killing the lion in such a manner there are many documented fights of lion killing polar bears that are just as reliable...  
 
 
 
the links are wrong you say? so you are saying that both national geographic and animal planet has provided the world with false information, which are 2 of the most credited groups of zoologists in the world and you are saying that you know better than them? 
 
 
 
both animal planet and national geographic state the lions bite force is at 1000 lbs... the hyena might have a higher bite force QUOTIENT, but the raw power is to the lion. 
 
 
 
and you seem to like that clip of the jaguar and the lions but you should be aware that they are simply frightened of the roar if they saw the jaguar behind the wall it would be quite the opposite way around.

Oliver,  
 
 
 
You are full of misinformation! 
 
 
 
You say "it is highly uncommon for bears to fight one another."  
 
 
 
First, I have written numerous times on this site that these bears fight often and sometimes savagely with one another. They fight over fishing spots, mating, & a mother Sow will protect her cubs unto the death against Male Bears unlike Female Lions who watch their cubs devoured by rogue Male Lions taking over the pride. 
 
 
 
HOW DO I KNOW? I already wrote about it! GO to Kodiak, Katmai, Denali like I HAVE and see for yourself.  
 
 
 
I HAVE SEEN up close a good number of serious bear fights! 
 
 
 
Second, since when is Canada the home of the largest number of Grizzlies? Unless you think Alaska is part of Canada LOL.. 
 
 
 
Point: There are a lot more Grizzlies in Alaska then Canada. Alaska estimates approximately 30,000+++ Grizzlies!!! 
 
 
 
Lastly, you sound so rediculous writing about Male Lion's standing on their hind legs and reaching 12-13 feet in height. Grizzlies can stand, walk, and fight on their hing legs; A Lion can only look up and wish. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Oliver-Grizzly's are not fat any more so than is a lion, obviously you don't know abou ttheir physiology makeup and the power they have displayed, or you could not have said such erroneous information which is the case-bears are very thickly muscled, yes, they do store fat, but they are for from the blobs you are insinuating! grizzly's and other bears fight and combat each other for fishing spots, mates, or just out of agressiveness, which they continually display. 
 
TED-you are 100% correct and by what you've written, I've no doubt you've seen bears in real life in the wild as I have(I didn't see one in the wild, but in the backwoods of WA state from a guy who has one over 900 lbs up close and in person!)Grizzzly's perform alot on their hindlegs as they are not only made for it physically, but are quite inclined to do it regularly as it is very comfortable in that position-it also scares off wolves and cougars standing up on its hind legs and roaring. 
 
The sites you provided about lion biteforce say the Hyena is the king of biteforce-the power goes to the Hyena-you are disproving your own point-they are teh ones rallying behind the Hyena, touting it as king of bite-they crush lion and elephant skulls and even eat lions teeth! They are teh only ones on earth capable of eating teeth and bone so completely that the calcium deposits in their feces makes their feces pure white and the birds even eat Hyena droppings to get calcium out of them-not lion droppings, they are incapable of eating bone like a Hyena-also, it shows the tiger has a stronger jaw than the lion-fact! 
 
What the jaguar video shows, is that the male lion was a big chicken and only the female had the balls to go and check it out after the roar-the jaguar certainly wasn't afraid, and they both had each other's scents to know the other was there-the male lion knew he was there, but ran almost out of his skin from the roar of th ejaguar-bears roar too, and are more intimidating when doing so! Animal planet is your source? That proves you don't fully watch and comprehend what they are telling you-the Hyena they say has the highest biteforce of mammals-king of bite-national geographic says this and also has put a video about this as well, stating they have a far higher bite force power than a lion which is more than double its weight! 
 
I've studied them(bears for 23 years and still learn because more info is still forthcomming from the pros in the field-no one knows everything and is constantly learning, no matter about what animal)no animal is pure muscle-I've seen fat dogs and fat lions and I've seen dogs which look like gymn freaks which no cat on earth has that much muscle in relation to size! xtremepitbulls.com is where you can see some. 
 
Actually you are wrong abou ttiger swiping speed as well-I've a vid of tigers that were transported to africa to learn to hunt as cubs til adults and its called" living with tigers" and it says they are faster than lions and better at killing as well on there own-faster boxers-the vids i sent you showed a lions face getting absolutely pummeled by the tiger, his face skin was flapping all over as the tiger swatted his face all over and out-boxed, out-swiped the lion all over that zoo enclosure! 
 
What do you mean"they maily reside in Canada"? Wyoming, northern cali, montana, north dakota and Alaska all have great populations of Grizzly's!! Yeah, you better hit the books on bears before comming on here and saying what they can and cannot do, when you don't know that much abou tthem and clearly are another lion fan biased being like a brick wall to engage in intelligent conversation with-we're just going in circles here-Ted, Balazs and I have all shown you the evidence, and we're still getting nowhere. There are facts backing up what we say-you have bias only for your lions-even lion trainer beatty thought Grizzly's would overcome lions-not that hes the supreme authority on lions or their behavior either-he's not. 
 
Lionesses do NOT average 350 lbs! 
 
"Facts about the Size of Lions 
 
Fully grown males reach the height of 4 feet 
 
An adult male weighs between 330-530 pounds"http://www.facts-about.org.uk/animals-lions.htm 
 
You were wrong abou tthe size of males in their length as well-length is INCLUDING th etail which is 3 feet!! "SIZES  
 
Head & Body Length: 9 ft. Tail 3ft.(included)."http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:GmTWBHcWgvMJwww.wonderclub.com/Wildlife/mammals/lion.html+lioness+sizes&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us"On average, males weigh 420 lb and females 275 lb.[4]" See-females are approximately the same size as cougars can get(male cougars)" Head and body length is 170–250 cm (5 ft 7 in – 8 ft 2 in) in males and 140–175 cm (4 ft 7 in – 5 ft 9 in) in females; shoulder height is about 123 cm (4 ft) in males and 107 cm (3 ft 6 in) in females. The tail length is 90-105 cm (2 ft 11 in - 3 ft 5 in) in males and 70–100 cm in females (2 ft 4 in – 3 ft 3 in).[4] " TAILS ARE INCLUDED IN LENGTH!! Cougars average approx. 200 lbs and have had one weighed at 264 lbs, so they are smaller than the lioness, but comparable,nontheless.  
 
Its false, Oliver, because lions CANNOT STAND ON THEIR TAILS, SO THEY WILL NOT BE 12 FT TALL!! Also, diagnal measurements are not as high as vertical measurements-look into some geometry books before refuting this fact. 
 
A bears roar is more intimidating than a lions-they can hold a roar for longer period of time due to its being larger and having larger lungs. grizzly's DO fight alot. 
 
A human has taken on a lion and killed it with his bare hands-not delusional-fact! Here's teh link for that!http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/africa/news/article_1375106.php/Kenyan_man_who_defeated_lion_dies_after_attack_by_hyenas# 
 
A Grizzly is too much predator for a lion in my opinion and in past dramas as played out in history here in North America and other circumstances. King Bear! 
 
 
 

Ted,  
 
 
 
As i've said before it is highly uncommon for bears to fight one another, that doesn't mean that conflict doesn't sometimes arise, but grizzly bears do not come into conflict 'often' therefore when it comes to conflict bears are easily intimidated and always back off before one is seriously injured. 
 
 
 
okay, fair enough i messed up my information on canada/alaska, however whichever way you look at it alaska is still a harsh winter enviroment and in the winter bears have to pack on 100's of kilgrams of fat just to stay alive... so bears don't have as much muscle as you think. 
 
 
 
you think that male lions can't stand on their hind legs? check these out please: 
 
 
 
http://animals.timduru.org/dirlist/lions/2MaleLions-Fighting.jpg 
 
 
 
http://www.gotravel24.com/files//2009/Bush/Lions-fighting_Chris%20Daphne.jpg 
 
 
 
 
 
Attilla, 
 
 
 
actually yes grizzlies have far more fat than a lion does, grizzlies live in a harsh winter enviroment so unless they have a lot of fat they will die... and in the winter they pack on even more fat because if they don't they will die. 
 
 
 
lions on the other hand live in a sub saharan setting in africa, so they don't need a lot of fat for a start... prides hunt only 2 or 3 times a week and lions fight daily, and can walk up to 100's of km's a day. 
 
 
 
i'm not insinuating that they are blobs, if you read what i said again i said 'grizzlies are by no means weak' which they are not but they are far from the huge pure muscle beast-like animal which you are insinuating. 
 
and it's practically unheard of for bears to fight other grizzlies out of agression. 
 
 
 
are you even watching the link i gave you? originally i wasn't even talking about hyenas i gave you the link which shows that national geographic and animal planet state a lion has an average bite force of 1000 lbs... nothing to do with a hyena... it also states that a lion and tigers biteforce is the SAME. 
 
 
 
tigers box exactly you've just said it yourself, the swipe speed is the exact same as a lions 'as found by animal planet'. 
 
the video which you are refering to shows a tiger hitting an asiatic lion which gets up immediately after being hit, 'everland' is the zoo which you are refering to and it is well documented that lions more often than not win the fights. 
 
 
 
and like i said to ted whichever way you look at it bears still live in a harsh winter enviroment in which they have to pack on 100s of kgs of fat to survive... i saw the pictures of bears and snow and assumed canada easy mistake no? 
 
but alaskas still a fine example because bears still have to be more fat than muscle. 
 
 
 
yep lioness's do average 350 lbs, and i wasn't wrong about lions, lions are 8 - 9 feet long fully grown without tail... with their tail however they are measured over 12 feet. 
 
 
 
cougars are not comparable to a lioness first you said cougars average 300 lbs and now you're changing it to 200 lbs. 
 
 
 
whichever way you're wrong because cougars average 137 lbs... going over 200 lbs would be jaguar size and you wouldn't be dumb enough to say cougars are just as heavy as a male jaguar right? 
 
 
 
not standing on their tails... standing on their legs... if you imagine a bear when it stands on it's hind legs large grizzly bears become about 8 foot tall... however on all 4's a bears length from nose to tail is about 5 foot. 
 
 
 
the same story with a lion, large male lions are 8 - 9 foot long on all fours, but when they stand on their hind legs even at a diagonal stance they will reach heights of 12 foot. 
 
 
 
you can try that link with people but don't expect anyone to believe that a human could kill a healthy male lion you would be foolish to think such a thing. 
 
 
 
in past dramas played out between the bear and the lion, the lion has also killed the bear and bears bigger than grizzlies... 
 
 
 
you seem to think that a bear is huge in comparison to a lion... but actually compared to a lion the bear only has weight on his side, and that weight contains 100's of pounds of fat to stay alive.

Oliver-and as I've said and experts such as the Grizzly almanac and people who live in bear or "Grizzly" country see and back up-Grizzly's and other bears fight alot-its not uncommon as you've erroneously stated-they fight each other all the time,just aa much as lions fight each other, sometimes less, sometimes more-they fight and fight alot! Now youve been corrected on that point, we'll move to another; 
 
You stated lions would be 12 tall when standing up-diagnal measuremanets are not as tall as a vertical one, so even though you are suggesting their height is 12 ft, that would mean they are bouncing on their tail like tigger from winnie the pooh or something! Standing up, a lion would be about 7 feet, because he can't get the full height because they can't stand as a bear can, period. "the same story with a lion, large male lions are 8 - 9 foot long on all fours, but when they stand on their hind legs even at a diagonal stance they will reach heights of 12 foot"`Oliver. 
 
What, is the lion tigger, able to stand or bounce on his tail for the height of 12 ft?! How do you get 12 ft when that includes tail length?! 
 
I never stated cougars are 300 lbs! Male jaguars have reached this weight, and male cougars have come close at 264 lbs or something like that-I've already posted the link and the size verifying that. 
 
 
 
"The largest cougars are found in southwestern Canada which is their most Northenly habitat (animals are nearly always larger the further north they are)." "3. A grizzly would be very likely to beat a lion but much less likely to beat a Bengal tiger. This is because tigers are somewhat stronger and more agile than lions which is an advantage when fighting more powerful but slower animals like bears. Still the bear's massive strength would give it very good chances against both animals" Daniel Moellic Expertise 
 
I can answer a variety of questions on interspecies conflict including hypothetical questions. I can go into detail if necessary. I would also like to mention that I prefer questions on reptiles vs mammals or reptiles in general however my best topic is theropod dinosaurs. I have a good understanding of the physiology of most species but cannot answer questions on things such as bite force as statistics on these vary a lot. 
 
 
 
Experience in the area 
 
I have studied animals both living and extinct since I was a child and was particularly fascinated by theropods and big cats. I am famous at college for knowing everything about various animals and how they behave. 
 
 
 
Education/Credentials 
 
I have an A* in biology (GCSE level) 
 
Male cougars are not uncommonly around 200 lbs "Males typically weigh 53 to 90 kilograms (115 to 198 pounds)" Female lions average 275 lbs-NOT 350 lbs! Their have been females attaining these weights, however, it is not average, so once again you stand corrected. If you do not beleive me, ask Damon-he knows more abou tlions than you do. 
 
You are wrong abou tbiteforce as well-the Hyena is king of bite omonst mammalians, and tigers have higher biteforce than lions-I've already sent you the link on that as well, but I see you've ignored that as all lion fans do and you are like talking to a brick wall repeating yourself despite me sending you links showing your data incorrect and proving my data. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3UWkFsEo3s&feature=related  
 
 
 
and this is biteforce; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByAL6vGsQL8&feature=fvw  
 
There is biteforce AGAIN-lion has 690 lbs-thats all-not 1000!!  
 
Bears have muscle and bone mass greater than a lion as well-they are much more massive-thats why they are touted as the world's LARGEST CARNIVORE. Also, tigers are recognized as being the largest of the big cats-another fact you lion fans refuse to face despite EXPERT animal biologists stating this in books, programs and documentaries and info on the web. 
 
12 ft is teh size of a tiger, not a lion which is 8-9 ft. 
 
BTW-the human did kill a lion with bare hands and it was not old and crippled either! 
 
Yes they have far more fat than a lion(Grizzly's) because its a larger animal, and they need fat store to live through the winter in hibernation, but to say they are fat blobs as you are insinuating is preposterous-they have more muscle than the big cats because they are bigger animals, their shoulder humps are pure muscle which from which they derive fighting power-also, fat protects them in fighting as well, but remember-they have so much muscle to move that fat to be able to run 35 mph!!  
 
 
 

ATTILA.. both lions and tigers average 9ft. 
 
Likewise, only but a few populations of brown bears can be considered larger than lions, and this is due food intake, rather than body size, which is basically equal. 
 
But yes, the lionesses don`t average 350...generally, they are 275 - 330 lbs on average, according to actual proven records. That lion with a bite force of 691 lbs was not yet grown....other studies, though they consist of estimates, indicate higher ranges in bite force. 
 
 
 
 
 

Oliver; 
 
this is a forum in which just to state your opinion in this hypothetical fight-I'm not being mean, just trying to understand about the height misnomer, which I do, but disagree about the height due to it being diagnal. 
 
We disagree, and thats great-thats what the whole thing is about, but the other things such as biteforce and lions/tigers-thats just not so, the tiger is bigger, has more speed and agility, faster swipes as shown in the video I sent you in the korean zoo(which the poor lions looked miserable)and are stronger. Lions are magnificent, but not king-that was romanticized in the past eras where chauvanistic imperialists adopted the "male lion" way of lording it over the female making her do all the work while he lays around doing nothing but getting his "lions share" of the food they killed, and fighting-males have about 12 fights in their life`Big Cats and so they were adopted for those reasons as mascots.  
 
Anyhow, yoiiu think the lion would win, I think bears would-you had some good points, but I remain with my pick-the bear. 
 
In a new fight-I would like to propose to pick your brain on a fight between a cougar and a jaguar, already some experts agree the cougar would win over a leopard, so who would you pick and why? 
 
ATTILA

it is uncommon for bears to fight one another, they may have seen bears fight but noone who has studied grizzly bears will tell you they fight 'often', and absolutely noone will tell you that grizzlies fight as often as lions do, that is a silly notion. 
 
 
 
i wasn't talking about vertical measurements, if you give way for about a foot or 2 a lion will still stand at 11 - 12 foot on it's hind legs... far taller than a 7 - 8 foot grizzly bear. 
 
listen again, lions do not need to stand on their tail to reach lengths of 12 foot, standing on their tails will be far more effective don't you agree? 
 
 
 
and yes you did say cougars can be 300 lbs check above ''Posted @ Friday, October 02, 2009 9:35 PM by ATTILA - actually cougars can be 300 lbs so they are not 2 times smaller than a lioness'' 
 
 
 
again, not once has a cougar ever been given a weight of 300 lbs, they average 137 lbs, it is exceedingly rare to find a cougar over 200 lbs. 
 
 
 
tigers are more agile due to a more flexable spine however they are no more stronger than a lion, in fact a lion is most probably the strongest of the 2, and a tigers agility doesn't matter in a fight between a lion and a bear because in comparison to the bear the lion is still highly agile 
 
 
 
don't say stupid things... you gave me a link to a video by a tiger fan who is constantly trying to prove the tiger superiority I GAVE YOU LINKS TO NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC AND ANIMAL PLANET WHICH BOTH FOUND THE AVERAGE LIONS BITE FORCE TO BE 1000 LBS 
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxh5GGSGmgQ 
 
 
 
now let's compare our sources shall we? you gave me a link to a tiger fans video, whilst i gave you links to 2 of the most credited wildlife expert groups in the world. 
 
 
 
i think i win this one... 
 
 
 
no, bears are credited as being the HEAVIEST land carnivores, both a lion and a tiger are taller and longer than any bear. 
 
 
 
and siberian tigers are credited as being the heaviest feline... lions average the same length and a greater height with the longest lions being longer than the longest tigers and the smallest lion being smaller than the smallest tigers. 
 
 
 
if you believe that a human is fully capable of killing a lion with his bare hands then that'syour own misguided opinion, however i advise you not to spread that around it will only get you laughed at. 
 
 
 
they have far more fat... they have 100's of pounds more fat than a lion which means their muscle mass isn't that much greater either although i agree it is quite a bit stronger but not to the degree which you think. 
 
 
 
in a fight it isn't about how fast you can run, it's about how explosive you can be which matters in regards to speed. 
 
and all felines in fact are known for reaching high speeds extreamly quickly lions go from 0 - 50 in 5 seconds and this will matter in a fight, bears take time to get over ever 25 mph... so his explosive speed will be no match for a lions. 
 
 
 

Oliver, a lion actually stands about 7 feet tall.....likewise, a cougar can average upwards of 154 lbs or more.... 
 
and actually, polar bears are longer than lions, but brown bears, if you exclude the tail, as just as long as either lions or tigers. Likewise, there is little, if any difference in the weight of these animals. 
 
and, bears can get to top speed rather quickly....there is much more to winning a fight than just speed...such as the fact the lion and tiger can execute a more effective immediate attack then the bear, in consequence to their more complex celiac ganglia and other factors which lead to explosive power, according to studies by george washington crile. 
 
and, lions actually run up about 30 - 35 mph...the 50 mph figure was merely a long standing estimate........the tiger can run about 35 - 40 mph.

i've tried to explain to you about the height but if you don't get it from what i've wrote above i'm not sure what else i can say. 
 
 
 
on regards to biteforce - i have given you links to both national geographic and animal planet which found both animals biteforce to average 1000 lbs 
 
 
 
on regards to paw swipes - i have given you links to animal planet which finds the lions and tigers swipe to b around the same speed. 
 
 
 
on regards to size - both myself and damon have given you numerous links which state lions on average are taller and average the same length as a tiger and also the same weight as an amur tiger (apart from in the siberian winter when amur tigers have to pack on a lot of fat to survive). 
 
 
 
in regards to the korean zoo called everland, the zookeepers say that the lions win more often than not, and not only that those lions are asiatic lions not african lions, and if on the off chance they are african lions they are very unhealthy african lions... 
 
 
 
lions spend the first few years of their lives learning how to fight and the rest of their lives either fighting the male lion to get into a pride, or defending their pride, or fighting the other lioness's over food, or the other male lions in the pride. 
 
 
 
i think due to much propaganda from bias tiger fans or from people who seem to think that the lion isn't 'dangerous' there has been a lot of confusion over how powerful the lion is some people just don't like to think that their favourite animal can fall to something they consider to be weak. 
 
 
 
as for the cougar vs jaguar fight, the cougar would fall without question and i don't believe for a second that a cougar stands a chance against a leopard either 
 
 
 
a cougar gets by, by making a lot of noise until the opponent backs down, it is highly agressive but not a particularly powerful feline in comparison to some others. 
 
 
 
both the jaguar and the leopard are pound for pound stronger than the cougar (especially the jaguar which is the 2nd strongest animal pound for pound).  
 
 
 
not only that as i've said earlier the cougar gets by, by making a lot of noise to indimidate it's opponent however; a leopard and a jaguar are part of the genus panthera and have a much more intimidating demenour and can make far more noise with their roars. 
 
 
 
both a jaguar and a leopard have stronger hind legs which is another advantage, cougars have bigger back paws and proportionally larger legs but not the adapted muscle which a jaguar and leopard have as they climb trees much more often. 
 
 
 
also cougars are quite slender in comparison to the bulk of a leopard and jaguar, the leopard lives in a much harsher enviroment and competes with lions and hyenas to survive, far more than a cougar competes with bears and lynx's so a leopard will be far less intimidated by a cougar. 
 
 
 
not to mention both leopards and jaguars have much greater biteforce. 
 
 
 
sorry that's a lot to read all in one but recently i was wondering the same thing.

damon i believe that the 50 mph figure was given to the lioness 
 
 
 
however i have numerous links which state a male lion reaches speeds of 35 - 40 miles in a matter of seconds.

Oliver, even for a lioness, a speed of 50 mph is rather high....that is even close to the usual speed a cheetah can run........schaller has stated, through observation of his own, and guggisberg supports this statement as well, that lions, males and females respectively, can run about 30 - 35 mph....and, i`ll be inclined to agree. 
 
50 mph would be rather extreme.

I think 50 mph is quite high but i also think that a lioness is quite capable of reaching this speed. 
 
 
 
50 mph isn't 'usual' cheetah speed, 60 mph is the usual, with some of the fastest reaching over 70 mph and i think the top speed ever recorded was 75 mph. 
 
 
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/athletics/features/newsid_2116000/2116135.stm 
 
 
 
source - BBC, a highly credited tv station with reports from various experts in the field of wildlife.

It's Football Sunday; take a brake! LOL... 
 
 
 
You guys really are passionate about this subject!  
 
 
 
Attila, I believe you're from the U.S. becaue you mentioned a friend in WA.  
 
 
 
How about Oliver, Damon? 
 
 
 
The reason I ask; in this debate Geography is important. 
 
 
 
"All Grizzlies ARE "Brown Bears" however, NOT ALL Brown Bears around the world ARE GRIZZLIES. I think someone on this site also wrote this. 
 
 
 
Point: When I say Grizzly I am referring to North American "Alaskan Coastal Brown" the "Kodiak" and the "Inland Grizzly."  
 
 
 
Some zoologists would take me to task for using the term "Inland Grizzly." Anyways, "Inland Gizzlies" fight less often because they are further away from the action. However, they still do fight. Google "Rogue Grizzly(s) kill Black Bears in Yellowstone Nat. PK." You may even have seen the documentary. 
 
 
 
Oliver, 
 
 
 
When Grizzly/Coastal/Kodiak Bears fight it can be vicious! Are the experts you cite writing about these bears or bears in general?  
 
 
 
If the experts studied the same subspecies of Bears I observed they would never have concluded it is "uncommen for bears to fight." 
 
 
 
It all depends on the Geography & Circumstances! 
 
 
 
Obviously Lions nor Bears could exist if they always fought to the death. 
 
 
 
As I stated earlier, a Sow Bear will always 99.9% fight to the death in order to protect her cubs. 
 
 
 
As for the Cougar video; it was cool. I liked the Female Cougar protecting her cub. 
 
 
 
However, don't think for a minute that the Grizzly on the video could not have easily killed both the mother & cub.  
 
 
 
In the video; the Bear got a good back rub and went on it's way. No harm/ no foul! 
 
 
 
The Reason: That Bear was big & healthy. It did not need to take any risks of injury. There is plenty of food for that individual Bear. 
 
 
 
African Lions don't have the same luxery. They need to constintly hunt & eat to survive. For this reason Lions will not tolirate competition from other predators in their territory. 
 
 
 
Time to go watch the Steelers & Chargers! 
 
 
 

Oliver, Never before have I heard a lion runs 50 mph-Damon was right about that, otherwise they would be catching far more prey and would have a higher success ratio in their kills. 
 
Ted, I am now living in Texas but used to live in cali, AZ, the dakotas, michigan and several east coast states before living here in Galveston, Texas. I believe Damon is from or living in DC area-not sure about Oliver. My best friend and Marine Corps buddy lives in upper WA and is the reason for my meeting the guy with the Grizzly over 900 lbs. I am not a hunter, and especially not one to condone trophy hunting of animals anyway. 
 
Ted, you are absoltely correct in your assertions about bears and fighting-especially that of sows. You are also right about animals in general not fighting to the death most of the time-they don't, it happens not so much, someone gets either injured, or more often than not-the rival learns its place before real harm can be done and it lives to fight another day-this is especially how wolves deal with each other in their hierarchy. 
 
Oliver, i scrolled up and I didn't see anywhere where I stated a cougar was 300 lbs, I did say they weren't 3 times smaller than a lioness, which you claimed. Also, that fact is a direct report from a Kenyan newspaper about the man killing the lion bare-handed-if you beleive it to be false, yoiu are misguided-I'm not the one who's going to be laughed at-its a fact. 
 
Polar bears are the largest living carnivore on earth-they are taller than lions or tigers "The height og adult polar bears(Ursus Maritimus) varies from 130-160cm.(4ft.3-5ft2')(DeMaster & Stirling 1981) They also swim 60 miles and "The polar bear is the largest living land carnivore"-Arkive2004 
 
As for the video's, I wouldn't say they are any more biased than those made by lion fans, would you? you guys get so fanatical, so as to make these videos and want to kill each other over which cat is superior. Tigers are cited as being the largest natural cat(ligers are unnatural)and lions are second largest. Tigers have larger canines. Lions are taller than tigers. Tigers are longer than lions-these are all facts. I'm unbiased and like both the same or close. 
 
Bears are fast to get to their top speed, and believe it or not-they have caught deer in a chase! Survivors of bear attacks-usually Grizzly's, say that the animal was a ways off, then all of a sudden, it was upon them in an instant. A Grizzly's rush is explosive, thats a fact.  
 
As for the cougar/jaguar fight, I'd call it close, maybe a cougar as they have viscious dispositions and have been cited by one cat expert as being capable of defeating a leopard. Jaguars are tough and larger, have a stronger bite(strongest per size)of the big cats, so....it'd be something! 
 
You have a good one Ted, Damon and Oliver, I have Dark Funeral codes to post. 
 

Oliver, i know 50 mph isn`t the usual speed of a cheetah, i merely said it was close. In one case, the fastest cheetah in timed races (at least, for captive specimens) was about 54 mph.  
 
Here is more info upon the speed of a cheetah; 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/speedofacheetah.jpg

Ted, i`m actually from d.c. 
 
But, you are wrong about something....lions do not have to constantly eat. They have enough prey items to sustain the whole pride with a particularly large animal killed. Most of the time, lions spend there time sleeping.

ted, 
 
 
 
I'm from England. 
 
 
 
a grizzly vs black bear does not often happen, black bears usually run at the sight of one and they are no match for the grizzly. 
 
 
 
but grizzlies fighting black bears happens more often that other grizzlies, but the simpe truth is grizzlies do not get much action at all, and most certainly not the type of action a sub saharan lion gets. 
 
 
 
yes i know when bears fight it can be vicious, but that's not to say they fight all that often... you were quite right when you said bears have a great luxary than a lion, bears don't fight all that often because there is plenty of food for them and they don't need to risk injury unlike a sub saharan lion. 
 
 
 
and, it would be foolish not to say that the bear could have killed that cougar, i don't think 'easily' because cougars literally tend to run rings around bears and attack the back, but of course the bear would have won. 
 
 
 
but like i said before, i wasn't showing you that video to show a felines domination in a fight, i was showing it so you could see that if bears back down and run away from cougars, then they will most certaily act the same way with a sub saharan male lion who is 3 times heavier and 2 times bigger, not to mention it's intimidating appearence and louder roar. 
 
 
 
Atilla, 
 
 
 
well now you can reliably hear of a lion reaching speeds of 50 mph if you'd care to take a look at this: 
 
 
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/athletics/features/newsid_2116000/2116135 
 
 
 
the source is BBC which is a highly credited TV station with many experts in the field. 
 
 
 
a lions average running speed however would be 40 mph. 
 
 
 
I gave you the date in my previous post and i'll give it again... Friday, October 2nd 9:35... scroll up and check that post. 
 
 
 
no i said they were 3 times lighter than a sub saharan lion and 2 times smaller, with a lioness they would be aprox 2.1 times lighter, 3 feet smaller in length, and a foot smaller in height. 
 
 
 
oh wow... i can se you're not understand this properly so i'll give you the video to the bite force again, but before i do you need to understand that it isn't 'quoted' by a lion fan it is simply shown, the sources are N A T I O N A L G E O G R A P H I C, and A N I M A L P L A N E T... and they both state that lions and tigers have an average biteforce of 1000 lbs which you will learn if you watch this video 
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxh5GGSGmgQ  
 
 
 
as for polar bears they are indeed the largest, but they are only a lot bigger in weight. 
 
 
 
they are about 5 foot from the ground standing on all fours and 9 foot standing on it's hind legs. 
 
 
 
lions are still longer than a polar bear and only a foot smaller on all fours... and a lion is more than a match for a polar bear as recorded by the pit fights they had. 
 
 
 
polar bears cannot swim 60 mph, if they could they wouldn't get eaten by the orcas, who can only swim 26 mph. 
 
 
 
bears are quick, but like i say their explosive speed is nothing in comparison to a lions, and in a fight it is explosive speed that matters not how fast you can run, it's about how fast you can reach that speed. 
 
 
 
i don't think it's close with the cougar and jaguar at all, i'd give the jaguar 9/10 fights and the leopard 7/10 fights. 
 
 
 
actually the snow leopard has the strongest bite force pound for pound of the felines and actually the strongest out of all land animals. 
 
 
 
 
 

Oliver, neither lions or tigers have a bite force of 1000 lbs....those figures were estimates. A tiger`s bite force has never been measured, though it would be less than that of the lion, with a smaller head and lower sagittal crest. 
 
and orca`s can actually swim about 34 - 35 mph, according to the most accurate records. Polar bears can swim about 5 mph. 
 
 
 

Damon,  
 
 
 
I know Lions sleep most of the time LOL..  
 
 
 
I was just stressing the point that African Lions are usually more agressive towards other predators because of the harsh African Plains. They can't afford to have competition scavaging their food. Hyenas often take the kill from a pride of Female Lions! If the Male Lions are around it is a different story! 
 
 
 
You are wrong when you wrote "Grizzlies fight Black Bears more often than other Grizzlies." As you wrote, Black Bears try to run from Grizzlies; they want nothing to do with Grizzlies. 
 
 
 
This is exactly why I mentioned Geography! 
 
 
 
The Alaskan Gizzlies fight often in Coastal areas due to fishing spots, mating rights, Sows protecting cubs etc... 
 
 
 
Inland Grizzlies not as much because of location. 
 
 
 
As far as the video, I already explained the Grizzly CHOSE to avoid the Mountain Lion just as it would CHOOSE to avoid the African Lion depending on the situation.  
 
 
 
However, As ATILLA already mentioned, Grizzlies CHOOSE when to fight! If the Grizzly really wants something it will always stand it's ground. It just has to be worth it!  
 
 
 
BOTTOM LINE: If "1" Male African Lion were to push a fight with a Grizzly over food, territory, or a Sow with cubs; there would in most cases be "1" less Male Lion on this planet. My opinion, 7/8 times out of 10 The Grizzly wins. 
 
 
 
Either way it would be a shame! I enjoy & respect both great animals.  
 
 
 
Enjoy England! 
 

Some of you guts are underestimating the Mountain Lion vs. the Jaguar. In the studies I read years ago mentioned the Cougar/Mountain Lion winning battles more often.  
 
 
 
Although it is rare they have been known to come into contact in the wild. Mexico/Central America/South America. 
 
 
 
True the Jaguar is bigger & has stronger jaws but the Cougars ability to leap and it's quickness probably is what gives them the edge. 
 
 
 
However, I would not be placing bets on this one!

Sorry, 
 
 
 
I meant "Guys" not "Guts!"

Actually, ted, grizzlies won`t usually fight another grizzly which they know would pose a rather great threat. It is usually only the adult males which fight, and this is usually during the time of the salmon. During other portions of the year, there is relatively little aggression between these specimens, though, like lions they fight aggressively over resources, and about 16% of males die due to fights with rivals. 
 
And, i doubt a male lion would lose to a grizzly sow....lions are rather aggressive, in fact arguably the most aggressive of the carnivora...even confronting potential challengers (based upon a study by packer) when they are outnumbered 3 to one..... 
 
Lions also have a much higher testosterone than brown bears, and are likewise the most combative of the carnivora.....for example, 23% of male lions die due to fights with rivals, however, only 10% of tigers die from intra-specific fights. 
 
male lions are also willing to confront lionesses with cubs (which are every bit as dangerous as a protective mother bear) and usually come out the winners. I don`t think a grizzly sow would be able to defeat a male lion, as they also have a more complex celiac ganglia...in fact, the most complex of ANY large mammal compared, and the most fulminating form of that 'instantaneous' outburst of energy of any animal of comparable size.....the lion would most certainly win this struggle. 
 
 
 

Damon, 
 
 
 
That's what I have been saying all along. "Adult Grizzlis fighting over FISHING SPOTS, MATING, & Sows protecting cubs. Most serious fights witnessed are at the fishing spots. 
 
 
 
As for Feamle Grizzly Bears vs. the Male Lions; I don't know.  
 
 
 
No animal is as protective as a Sow Grizzly.  
 
 
 
Female Lions do back down from Male Lions who kill their cubs and then mate with the Females.

Damon, 
 
 
 
Earlier you asked where I was and with who.  
 
 
 
If you want; look up 1993 November Issue of National Geographic: Kodiak Island. 
 
 
 
I was at there! The exact spots pictured with Alaskan Fish & Game experts. O'malley Creek is a Federal protection site for Kodiak Bears. I was in law enforcement; nothing more to tell about that. 
 
 
 
The dominant Females were called Lacy and Gloria. I only got close to lacy. During Salmon runs in July-August her wieght was around 600+++Lbs. 
 
 
 
In Katmai N.P. on mainland Alaska I observed Big Males at Brooks Falls. The biggest during the Salmon run was easily, 1000-1100Lbs. The Adult Bears there were 600-1100 Lbs. 
 
 
 
I have a lot of photos; and yes they did fight one another.

Attila, 
 
 
 
I do not hunt! I especially could never hunt animals that allowed me to get up close and observe it. 
 
 
 
When you get the time I would like to read about the Grizzly your friend has. Is he a trainer/handler? Did he have the bears when it was a cub?

Ted, lionesses occasionally take on males which try to kill their cubs, according to studies by packer.....in fact, packer asserts that is one of the reasons the females are group oriented, as they are able to team together to stop invading males...usually they are successful, though this isn`t always documented.

Ted, i believe you went there. However, you stated the bears there were "600-1100 Lbs."...i don`t agree with estimates. And, it is very rare for a grizzly sow to reach 600 lbs....in fact, in one study, the heaviest, i believe, was less than that weight, if `im not mistaken, though i`m merely quoting on memory. In fact, due to this very discussion blog, i now have quite a bit of data upon grizzlies as well as other brown bears. 
 
In other words, a grizzly sow of 600 lbs would be rather exceptional......for ANY species of bear.

Oliver, an estimate from a skull is still just an estimate....i much rather rely upon actual bite force measurements. Likewise, it should be noted that those skulls of the lion and tiger was scaled to the largest recorded measurements of both, which would indicate such bite forces may be extreme for average sized lions and tigers. 
 
and, hyenas have indeed stole many a kill from lionesses.....in fact, they do so on a near regular basis in certain parts of africa, though hyenas hunt more then they scavenge. 
 
Check this vid out; 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2kOmTjbFM0 
 
And, lionesses are every bit as maternal as sows....however, a male lion would most certainly injure or even kill a female lion which tried to intervene in his takeover of the pride, though females have been known, and according to packer this is rather frequent, to displace male lions which tried to take over the pride. Even single lionesses have been known to repel male lions trying to kill their cubs, though this is rarely documented.

Damon, 
 
 
 
I was tlking about COASTAL MALES at KATMAI N.P. weighing 600-1100 Lbs. NOT Females. Also, I said only ONE MALE actually reached the 1000 Lb. weight. 
 
 
 
On Kodiak there were TWO dominant Sows that reached 600 Lbs. during the Salmon run. If you researched Kodiak it should support my comments. 
 
 
 
 
 
Yes, Female Lions with cubs have a pride to rely on; sometimes the pride of females will run off a Male Lion(s).  
 
 
 
However, a female Lion would not generally take on a Male Lion 1 on 1 unto death to protect her cubs. As soon as the Male kills the cubs the female will go into heat and mate with him. 
 
 
 
This is not the case with Grizzly Sows. They will fight to the death if need be to defend their cubs. Sometimes the Male Grizzly will get the message and moves on; sometimes it kills the Sow.

Damon, 
 
 
 
Do a quick search on the Kodiak Bear and you will see Sows are between 500-700 Lbs. It is mostly due to DIET.

Oliver, 
 
 
 
I was agreeing to Damon's comment about Lions sleeping most of the time. And I do agree with him! Grizzlies sleep a lot as well LOl.. 
 
 
 
As for Hyenas: It is well documented that a PACK of Hyenas steal kills from Female Lions. I have seen several videos on this. The best is "Eternal Enemies." Sometimes a PACK of Hyenas also kill Female Lions during battle. 
 
 
 
However, I also wrote that a PACK of Hyenas have no chance when adult Male Lions are present. 
 
 
 
Enough with the Mountain Lion! If the Grizzly wants to fight the Cougar there is no doubt who the winner will be. Could you imagine if a Cougar showed up at Brooks Falls to fish; the smallest Grizzly would be all over that cat. 
 
 
 
I said "Fishing Spots" are where the Bears fight most often.  
 
 
 
I also said Bears will fight over mating rights but it is less witnessed and if their is a clear inferrior bear it will back off. Whats your point? 
 
 
 
Also, I am not sure what you mean when you state in regard to Lion & Bear hypothetical encounters 
 
"With most Big Bears perhaps even more with the Grizzly Bear & Kodiak."  
 
 
 
I doubt that you are saying Male Lions would defeat Grizzlies and Kodiaks easier than they would other bears. You seem more knowledgable then that! 
 
 
 
Oliver, 8 out of 10 for the Kodiak/Coastal/Grizzly.

Ted, i know you were talking of coastal males when you stated they weighed 600 - 1100 lbs...however, i stated that those were estimates, and therefore unreliable.  
 
And, i also know that you were talking about one female when you stated she weighed 600 lbs...however, i doubt that was her actual weight...it was, i presume, an estimate?..... 
 
And, i already know that sows can reach 600 lbs...i stated that it wasn`t a usual occurrence. And indeed, i believe you previous statement that that female was 600 lbs was an estimate....unless, you can show proof it was weighed?.... 
 
and, the lionesses do not go into heat immediately after the male takes over the pride. It takes about 3 weeks, maybe a little more, according to studies from the joubert couple, as well as packer. Also, it takes time for the females to actually except the new males....as much as a week or 2, in fact.  
 
and, lionesses have been known, and in fact from what packer has documented it is rather frequent, that lionesses defend their cubs from males, and most usually succeeds, though as i stated before it is scarcely documented. 
 
And, while sows are very protective of her cubs, most usually, she`ll try to avoid the males, most usually opting to fight when the male should press his advance upon her.

Damon, 
 
 
 
Yes you are correct! I am giving you an estimate from experts who were with me. The weight is in the ball park; using your logic, it could be lower as well as higher. 
 
 
 
However, if you do a quick lookup of Kodiak Bears you will see the weight I quoted is excepted by most/all experts on this subject.

Damon, 
 
 
 
no, again it is not 'JUST an estimate'is is a highly RELIABLE estimate, and what makes you think that those estimates were taken from the largest species? i take it you have evidence for this? and it was not just animal planet that estimated this number it was also national geographic... unless you're saying that they're both unreliable? 
 
 
 
and i do not put much emphasis on actual bite stick measurements because animal planet already proved that lions only use 20% of their jaw power to crush the throat of a cape buffalo, so for me that's evidence to also say a lion would never bite hard on a stick either... 
 
 
 
and yes as i'll reply to ted soon i didn't notice he said a pack of hyenas, in that video where the hyenas are scavenging it even says 'the numbers are too great' compared to the 4 or 5 lioness's in that video. 
 
 
 
however 4 or 5 hyenas would never even think of scavenging from those lioness's who still fought back despite the extreame number disadvantage... but they simply are not as agressive as males. 
 
 
 
and i've never read a source that suggest lioness's are 'very maternal', obviously they care for their young but i doubt it's anywhere near the degree a bear does. 
 
 
 
Ted,  
 
 
 
lions sleep a lot but they do not spend 'most of their time sleeping' as damon said, please watch this video i'll give it again: 
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6NMwrLRm7E&feature=response_watch 
 
 
 
look, like i've said what feels like a million times now i was NOT showing that video to show how a feline would be dominant in a fight i was showing it to show how easily intimidated a bear is by even a cougar and how unwilling it is to fight even given the ammount of blatent disrespect. 
 
 
 
well, seeing as though it is practically unheard of for lions to fish, there will be no conflict there. 
 
 
 
and my point was that because salmon season is really the only time grizzlies actually come into the most ammount of conflict with each other, the only grizzlies that will have a great ammount of experience fighting will be bears of the age of 20... generally grizzly bears are very immature when it comes to conflict. 
 
 
 
i was simply saying that a lion would defeat a polar bear with far greater difficulty than say any brown bear because they are more agressive than other bears, bigger, and face the harsh enviroment of the other extreame compared to the sub saharan lions who lives in the burning heat at all times, polar bears are at the opposite end of the harsh enviroment and they live in a constant freezing enviroment. 
 
 
 
although i am aware kodiak bears are around the same size and weight they have an omnivorous diet, which tells you 2 things about them 
 
 
 
1. they will on average not be as strong as any other bear 
 
 
 
2. they will not be as agressive or 'fierce'

Oliver, 
 
 
 
You seem hung up on Bite force!  
 
 
 
Your measurements just don't add up. 
 
 
 
Also, Bear experts agree it is inacurate that Polar Bears are stronger than Big Browns,Kodiak,Grizzlies. The big hump on the back and shoulder of those Browns is all muscle. 
 
 
 
Either way from the beginning I have included Polar Bears. I listed the Big 4; Kodiak,Coastal,Grizzly,Polar Bear. 
 
 
 
Age 20! More misinformation.  
 
 
 
A Grizzly enjoys a lot more prime years in regard to fighting than a Male Lion. Male Lions rule a pride for 2-3 years and then their reign comes to an end. 
 
 
 
As for Grizzly Bears being Omnivours; that does not support either of your two assumptions. Grizzlies still kill and eat Big game. They have a more complete diet than Male Lions or Polar Bears. That works to their advantage; they never starve. 
 
 
 
Time to close shop!  
 
 
 
Bears 8 
 
 
 
Lions 2 
 
 
 
LOL...

Oliver, most usually, animal face off or nat geo quote well known estimates.....while other estimates were taken, the highest were from those studies done on animal face off....from model skulls scaled to the largest recorded skull sizes for both, which they stated. That is the ONLY study in which lions and tigers were estimated to have a bite force of 1000 lbs, most other quotations being different. 
 
and yes, a lion indeed uses only a portion of his bite force to crushing the throat of a buffalo....however that has NOTHING to do with biting upon a bite meter. When any animal grabs onto an object, which which is connected to something else, they`ll use there greatest jaw strength to maintain their grip...... 
 
and, lions usually spend up to 19 hours a day, sleeping. Indeed, both scahller, and packer stated based upon their observations upon these animals, that they sleep rather frequently....and they`d often have to wait hours on end before a lion decides to move.....but, that has nothing to do with being lazy...as they aren`t lazy. being lazy refers to when an animal is awake, and does little...but, that is not the case, as lions usually travel, on a daily basis, farther than tigers.  
 
and actually, studies show that brown bears are actually the most aggressive species of bear, and even they are not quite as aggressive as male lions, who often confront challengers even when they are outnumbered 3 to one, according to studies by packer. 
 

Ted, 
 
 
 
my bite force replies were not to you who previously i don't think hadn't debated it much. 
 
 
 
they are not my measurements i think i will take the word of national geographic and animal planet, in this particular spat. 
 
 
 
i do believe that polar bears are quite a ways stronger than probably all land carnivores, you forget that the walrus they hunt weigh sometimes twice as much as themselves which they have to drag out of water onto the ice. 
 
 
 
somehow i just don't see a grizzly, coastal or kodiak bear doing that. 
 
 
 
male lions don't fight just because they're in a pride... they spend their childhood learning how to fight and not only that when they leave the pride they don't always join another nomadic males or nomadic coalitions are common and they fight with hyenas, sometimes amongst themselves, and perhaps the pride male they want to take over or if they're in a prides terretory they will most likely be attacked so even out of the pride they face much conflict. 
 
 
 
i wasn't really saying much about grizzlies inparticular i doubt they're stronger than the average polar bear just based on sheer size and hunting styles. 
 
 
 
i was refering mainly to the kodiaks omnivourous diet, if there is other food sources they will not hunt, it would suggest that they're quite a bit less agressive than a polar bear and lack the strength which a polar bear would have. 
 
 
 
and like i said before you're entitled to believe that but i'll still remain at a 6/10 for the lion. 
 

Actually, Oliver, it is documented rather frequently that the lion sleeps rather often, even in the wild, or captivity. At the d.c. zoo, for instance, you can hardly see the lions move about, as they are usually asleep, except when it gets cooler....it is the same for lions in the african plains, and this has been documented. 
 
Lions sleep through the worst of the day, and spend most of their time awake at night. scientists have had to wait hours for lions to move about, because, they sleep frequently. 
 
And, there are no other records which give an average bite force of 1000 lbs for lions, except those gathered from animal face off.....any other quotations are mere opinions....nat geo and animal planet is merely a channel, it`s the people on them which makes the statements.  
 
When brady barr measured the bite force of that young lion, he (the lion) immediately tried to pull the meter from the hands of the guy holding the line to which the meter was attached...the lion had such a strong grip, in fact, that he pulled that guy over, and also pulled the line out of the guys hand...though the end of the line was attached to their vehicle, so that the lion could not run off with it. 
 
and yes, lions also walk their territories rather frequently, but, this is during the times when they are actually most active. Like all cats, they have hours of inactivity, and periods where they expend rather a lot of energy. I do have records upon this, if you want to see them?....i also have bite force records, from respectable sources, and, though these particular measurements are estimates derived from skulls, most seem reliable. 
 

Actually, Oliver, it is documented rather frequently that the lion sleeps rather often, even in the wild, or captivity. At the d.c. zoo, for instance, you can hardly see the lions move about, as they are usually asleep, except when it gets cooler....it is the same for lions in the african plains, and this has been documented. 
 
Lions sleep through the worst of the day, and spend most of their time awake at night. scientists have had to wait hours for lions to move about, because, they sleep frequently. 
 
And, there are no other records which give an average bite force of 1000 lbs for lions, except those gathered from animal face off.....any other quotations are mere opinions....nat geo and animal planet is merely a channel, it`s the people on them which makes the statements.  
 
When brady barr measured the bite force of that young lion, he (the lion) immediately tried to pull the meter from the hands of the guy holding the line to which the meter was attached...the lion had such a strong grip, in fact, that he pulled that guy over, and also pulled the line out of the guys hand...though the end of the line was attached to their vehicle, so that the lion could not run off with it. 
 
and yes, lions also walk their territories rather frequently, but, this is during the times when they are actually most active. Like all cats, they have hours of inactivity, and periods where they expend rather a lot of energy. I do have records upon this, if you want to see them?....i also have bite force records, from respectable sources, and, though these particular measurements are estimates derived from skulls, most seem reliable. 
 

Oliver, 
 
 
 
I briefly touched on bite force in earlier comments. However,you keep writing about Bite Force and I keep recieving your comments.  
 
 
 
Comments on Bite Force & Cougars intimidating Grizzlies has become silly & pointless!  
 
 
 
Next: You stated, Bears do not mature into fighters until 20 years of age.  
 
 
 
That is pure nonsense!  
 
 
 
Browns/Grizzlies/Kodiaks begin their prime years at around 9-10 years of age. By this age they have reached optimal size!  
 
 
 
This also means they have 10+++ years for fighting in their prime since they average a life span of 
 
25 years in the wild. That is as long as many Male Lions live let alone fight in their prime.  
 
 
 
However, these bears fight seasonaly while Male Lions fight all year around. Yet, as you know a Male Lion riegns an average of 2-3 years over his pride. Just like Bears; Lions will at times submit to other dominant Males in order to live another day. 
 
 
 
Polar Bear vs. Brown/Kodiak/Grizzly 
 
 
 
The Polar Bear and above "Browns" have different body structures and are stronger than the other in different ways. 
 
 
 
A Polar Bear has a long enourmously strong Neck that can pull Sea Lions out of the ice/water. A "Brown" probably could not do that. Also, Polar Bears do hunt and kill large Walrus. 
 
 
 
The ABOVE "Browns" on the other hand have amazingly strong Shoulders a Backs for Hunting, Fighting & Digging. This would probably give them the advantage in an encounter between the two.  
 
 
 
Also the latest "Bear experts" I have read stated that Grizzlies are more aggressive than Polar Bears when the two have been observed encountering eachother. I have never seen such an encounter so I cannot give a first hand account. 
 
 
 
Final Score: 
 
 
 
Male Big Bears 7/8 
 
 
 
Male Big Lions 2/3 
 
 
 
I gave you a .5 increase; thats as low as I can go! LOL... 
 
 
 

I never said that lions don't sleep often, like every other feline lions like to rest during the day time. 
 
 
 
but like every other feline lions also like to pace around their home; if you were to compare them to a domestic housecat (i have 2), they sleep frequently during the day but hardly ever deeply, for perhaps an hour or 2 then they'll pace around the house and the garden if the door is open, then come back in and find another place to rest or they might eat. 
 
 
 
and this will happen a few times during the day until the night time when they go out and i lose track but i assume they don't sleep at all. 
 
 
 
a lions behaviour is quite similar, although they do this in their 'house' which can be up to 100 square miles in total, and once or twice a week instead of just eating they go and hunt... if a lion has slept for 19 hours it is exceedingly uncommon, lions would not be able to bring down their prey if they only came alive for 5 hours a day. 
 
 
 
and again, you cannot say that national geographic gives out 'mere opinions' they are highly reliable opinions just the same as animal planet i have not seen national geographics experiments but it is highly unlikely they would just give a 'mere opinion', animal planet on the other hand carried out experiments based on the lion and tigers skull: 
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxh5GGSGmgQ 
 
 
 
that video shows both national geographics and animal planets estimates. 
 
 
 
perhaps you can provide me with a link or video that shows the manner in which brady barr took the bite force? but either ways 690 lbs is a young lion... 
 
 
 

Oliver, the people from animal planet and nat geo are human just like you and me, and apt for mistakes. That`s why i`d much rather rely upon actual measurements of the bite force of these animals, though frank mendell has told me (via email) that he is trying to measure the bite force of a tiger (all his previous attempts failed). 
 
And, lions actually do rest for quite some time. House cats sleep less often than lions.....which sleep throughout most of the day, and are in fact most active at night.  
 
In fact, in africa, you`d be hard pressed to find a lion moving about....don`t get me wrong, this is not too suggest they are lazy...they are far from lazy.  
 
And, i`ll try and find the vid in which brady barr measured the bite force of that lion....though yes, the lion was a young specimen, perhaps nearly 4 years in age....and, i stated this. an adult lion, in my opinion, would have a bite force of about 750 lbs. And, here is a reliable figure giving estimated bite forces of many animals based upon measurements using the skulls of these animals; 
 
http://intern.forskning.no/dokumenter/wroe.pdf

ted, 
 
 
 
yes but the bite force comments were towards atilla and damon, you will recieve the emails regardless sorry if it annoys you. 
 
 
 
whilst i am aware bears reach optimum size at 10 years old, what i said was they will not have gathered enough fighting experience until they reach that age, they simply don't come into much conflict at most times during the year. 
 
 
 
nono, you're mixing up your facts there whilst bears will usually submit straight away before one is hurt it usually takes lions fighting before one submits, and lions submit a lot less than bears they will sometimes fight even if the numbers are 4 to 1, somehow i don't see a bear doing that. 
 
 
 
and polar bears don't just use their neck it isn't that strong to pull a bull walrus out of the water lol, they use their necks and their claws so in essence their backs and shoulders too. 
 
 
 
even with their considerable strength i don't think they would be able to do much to a polar bear, their fighting styles are too similar they don't have much speed and agility on their side in comparison. 
 
 
 
although i would never claim to be an expert i am a well informed person, but i disagree with any bear expert that has said that, polar bears hunt much more than grizzlies who are also herbivorous so they have to be particularly agressive to be able to survive unlike the grizzly who in comparison to a polar bear has a fairly easy life. 
 
 
 
here is 2 grizzly bears fighting: 
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGwUpM9QryU 
 
 
 
and here are 2 polar bears fighting: 
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idLzuDRayno 
 
 
 
although you'll have to skip ahead to 1:17 to watch the polar bears fighting personally i think they're more agressive but you decide for yourself. 
 

Oliver, 
 
 
 
Slow down and read what I write! Go back and reread my last comment 
 
 
 
I never said a Polar Bear pulled a Walrus out of the water using just its neck. I NEVER even said a Polar Bear PULLED a WALRUS out of the water LOL... 
 
 
 
I said a Polar Bear pulled SEA LIONS (much smaller) out of the water. Polar Bears have long enormously strong NECKS. Yes their Shoulder and Back are attached to their Neck LOL..  
 
 
 
A Polar Bear attacks the Walrus on Ice/land; rarely in the water. In the water I would put my money on the Walrus. 
 
 
 
My point was that Browns/Grizzlies vs. Polar Bears are built with different physical structual frames. Grizzlies/Browns have the famous "Hump" = muscle on top of their Back/Neck. That is absent on the Polar Bear. 
 
 
 
Either way both are extremely powerful animals. 
 
 
 
As far as agression; I am talking about Bear on Bear aggression.  
 
 
 
I will try to watch the videos if I can pull them up. However, I have seen a lot of Brown/Grizzly fights; quite a few in person. I have seen Polar Bears fight only on video.  
 
 
 
I don't know anyone who has seen a Kodiak, Coastal Brown, or Grizly fight a Polar Bear. If you know someone who has or a video of those two different Bears fighting I would be more than happy to watch it. 
 
 
 
The only site I read was this one LOL..  
 
 
 
It has a Grizzly/Brown vs. Polar Bear match up which I find funny. By the way this site picks the Brown Bear; not that it means a dam thing.

Oliver, 
 
 
 
Yes I have seen a lone Male Lion stand it's ground against several Male Lions. Quite impressive! 
 
 
 
However, since Bears are solitary animals it would be rare for them to team up on a individual Adult Male Bear.

oh yeah slight misreading on my part because polar bears are famous for killing them i immediately thought you had said that. 
 
 
 
no, it is uncommon for a polar bear to attack a walrus on land or ice, they prey on walrus in the point between water ice and air, which means the walrus will have part of it's body out of the water in the gap between ice and the polar bear will be on ice and will pull the walrus out using it's jaws, neck, and claws (so shoulders and back as well). 
 
 
 
only the kodiak bear with the muscle hump on it's back could present any kind of a challenge towards the polar bear, the other bears, by sheer average mass and size do not present any kind of a challenge as their fighting styles and the way they attack are too similar. 
 
 
 
but the kodiak i still think would lose because of it's omnivourous diet and lack of agression, plus the fact that polar bears are bigger on average and even though the kodiak may have that hump of muscle the polar bears highly carnivorous diet will allow the polar bear to develop bigger and stronger muscles. 
 
also there's the fact that polar bears killing technique is to crush the skull and can crush the skull of a bull walrus. 
 
 
 
and i think some observations show polar bears fight more often than any brown or grizzly bear. 
 
 
 
i think if the polar bear were of similar size to a grizzly, the grizzlies agression and powerful forequarters would win, but the simple fact is they are hardly ever of similar size and on average the polar bear far outweighs the grizzly. 
 
 
 
alaska would be your only bet to look for grizzly vs polar bears, i've never heard of any pit fights but i've heard of one source saying a grizzly sow (with her cubs) drove off 4 male polar bears from their kill in alaska, however she did not beat them in a fight they simply left their kill for her and her cubs to eat, apparently the polar bears dd not fight back and showed amazing tolerance. I'm not sur about the reliablility of the source but either ways in a fight i think everyone could agree a sow stands not a chance polar bears are far more tolerant of other bears around them and a female with her cubs is twice as agressive as usual, and what i doubt even more so is that polar bears would be tolerant of any male bears, especially any male bears of a different species. 
 
 
 
apart from that it seems quite hypothetical to me, all i know is usually it's been documented that when male bears have show agression to another it is far more unlikely for a polar bear to back down from the fight than it is for a grizzly or any brown bear to.

i think this is where the cliche phrase of 'the heart of a lion' comes in, although lions often calculate the odds, a lot of the time they are simply too agressive, or better yet too PROUD to back down from any fight even if the ods are severely against them (5 to 1)... bears on the other hand are much more mild mannered and avoid fighting wherever possible, but lions it has been observed that they don't try to avoid fights unless they are in another prides terretory, on the contrary lions seem to love to fight and will practice agressive situations wherever possible be it with other male lions, hyenas, leopards, or even african wild dogs, they have this high level of testosterone which dictates them to tell everyone around them at all times who's in charge. 
 
 
 
lol that kinda sounded like a speech, a bad one but informative.

Oliver; 
 
I'm laughing hard now at the misunderstanding! I said polar bears SWIM 60 miles-not swim 60 mph!! Thats faster than the fastest shark-the Mako and faster than swordfish!! You can't really believe I meant that, could you?! They do NOOT get eaten by orcas anyway, orca's have a diet which doesn't include people OR polar bears. There has never been one documented case of an orca in the wild predating on a human or polar bear. 
 
"and my point was that because salmon season is really the only time grizzlies actually come into the most ammount of conflict with each other, the only grizzlies that will have a great ammount of experience fighting will be bears of the age of 20... generally grizzly bears are very immature when it comes to conflict."``Oliver 
 
 
 
Grizzlys fight as often as do lions-as Ted stated, a male lion only stays in charge about 2 years-and they DO sleep about 20 hrs per day-thats an established fact! Grizzly's DO fight often. Thier range is expansive, and they roam over a great many miles they require, thats what they do and were made as an animal requiring a vast expanse to roam-thats why we have intra-species conflict with them comming into human populations when originally the bear was many miles away from any humans. Bears have vast territories, so they will come into conflict with anything they see if they choose to-which again, is up to the Grizzly, not what its comming into contact with. 
 
Good one, Ted-I have that video "Eternal Enemies"-great vid! I never meant you to think I was saying you were a hunter. I think its more fun and more challenging/fullfilling to photograph these animals in the wild, although I've not had that opportunity-perhaps one day though, as I'm an avid photographer on my own time away from work and its drudgery. 
 
"However, As ATTILA already mentioned, Grizzlies CHOOSE when to fight! If the Grizzly really wants something it will always stand it's ground. It just has to be worth it!"``Ted  
 
Thats correct Ted, you are right, as I was trying to explain also as were you, its the bears choosing-THATS how things will be! If the Grizzly however chooses the other way around-nothing will stand in his way! Grizzlys also DO fight EVERY mating season constantly battling others for the chance at the best sow/s. 
 
The Hyena, once again, Oliver is quoted by eperts as having the STRONGEST biteforce in mammalians period-not the snow leopard. The Hyena is king of bite (actually queen, the largest and strongest of the species is Spotted Hyena females). "Oliver, neither lions or tigers have a bite force of 1000 lbs....those figures were estimates."``Damon 
 
Damon is right about this-it was an ESTIMATE-NOT viable proof! As for Hyenas stealing lions food, Hyenas are also very good hunters and lions also scavange off of Hyena kills-as shown in my video Ted was referring to! "also hyenas have never been known to steal from adult female lions, especially prides of them, hyenas are often killed by leopards let alone being a match for a lioness... "``Oliver 
 
Oliver, you are quite wrong about this as well-there are many cases of Hyena clans stealing or taking over kills and running off adult female lions-on my video by NATGEO, the Hyenas kill a lioness over food! They've killed lionesses over food a number of times documented, and who knows how many times undocumented as there aren't film crews and cameras rolling constantly! The only times when the clan scatters or choose not to attack, is a male lions presence, and sometimes due to hunger only, they press it then, often with terrible results for the Hyena matriarch. 
 
 
 
"as for polar bears they are indeed the largest, but they are only a lot bigger in weight.  
 
they are about 5 foot from the ground standing on all fours and 9 foot standing on it's hind legs.  
 
lions are still longer than a polar bear and only a foot smaller on all fours..."``Oliver 
 
 
 
Oliver-you contradicted yourself in your own point stating that a polar bear is only larger due to weight, then right after, you show what I posted that they are up to a foot taller, and as Damon stated, they are also longer than a lion. 
 
Ted, 
 
I don't think you can read abou tthis guy, he has no internet, whether by choice or location, but its my best friend and Marine buddy's friend in uppper WA. The guy said he got him as a cub, the mother was killed and he decided to take on the cub. I'd like to go see my friend Jim and have him take me up there to see that guy and his bear again-I'd love to get photos of that bear!! 
 
Here is a polar bearkilling and dragging a walrus of 2 tons!  
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob_oD1IsYbE 
 
Also, Ted, have you heard of the pizzly or grolar bear which is a hybrid of the crossing of a Grizzly with a polar bear due to the Grizzly moving far north? Its an interesting animal, not too much about it is known yet. 
 
Attila 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

hm? swimming 60 miles doesn't indicate that the polar bear has a lot of stamina in fact quite the contrary, polar bears are much more known for overheating very quickly. 
 
 
 
and you are quite wrong orcas do prey on polar bears as is stated in these links: 
 
 
 
(http://www.thewildones.org/SFC/Seana/ryan.html) says that the orca preys on polar bears in water. 
 
 
 
http://www.seaworld.org/infobooks/KillerWhale/dietkw.html says that polar bears have been found in the stomachs of orcas.  
 
 
 
George (http://www.thewildones.org/SFC/Seana/george.html) says that the orca may come onto land by breaking through the ice or moving onto the ice, which is very dangerous for it 
 
 
 
when polar bears are swimming to follow their prey most likely orcas will prey on them and polar bears have to swim very fast in order to stand a chance. 
 
 
 
grizzlies fight no where near as often as male lions do, the only time grizzlies come into any real conflict is during the salmon season when choosing the best fishing spot and even then most back down quite quickly as they do not want to risk injury. 
 
 
 
the rest of the year the only conflicts they come into contact with are hardly even conflicts (wolves, cougars etc). 
 
 
 
and again just because a male lion may stay in charge of a pride for 3 years on average not 2, they spend most of their lives fighting. 
 
 
 
***and they DO sleep about 20 hrs per day-thats an established fact!*** 
 
 
 
no, it is not an established fact, a lions territory can be up to 100 square miles, when you have a lazy day in the house you might go play some games, eat some things, go to the toilet, check your post etc but you do this all in the comfort of your home. 
 
 
 
a lions territory or 'house' can fit up to 60,000 of your average house in it, and a lion spends time walking around to defend over it's territory, they might eat something from the previous kill they've made, they might mark their territory, and they might go someplace to roar to scare away potential intruders doing this all in a territory of up to 100 square miles, now do you really think a lion who can bring down buffalo up to 3 times it's own body weight, can spend 20 hours a day sleeping? if so you're deluded. 
 
 
 
an expert on lions explains what i've just said in this video which is probably easier to understand although i've quoted him in all of that: 
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6NMwrLRm7E&feature=response_watch 
 
 
 
ermmm yes grizzlies do choose when to fight but how is that even a point? ALL animal CHOOSE when to fight, the simple fact was that the grizzly in the video was so intimidated by the cougar it backed away (and even ran)... now imagine the same situation with a male lion, who is 3 times the cougars weight, twice it's size in height and about 3 - 4 foot longer on average... do you think the bear would CHOOSE to fight there? 
 
 
 
actually, pound for pound snow leopards have the strongest jaws, and the jaguar comes in a second. 
 
the view that hyenas have the strongest jaws is a myth and a number of other animals including the tasmanian devil have a proportionally stronger bite as quoted from ''Ancient Worlds News - Marsupial has the deadliest bite - 04/04/2005'' 
 
 
 
and the source and quote can be found on this link: 
 
 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyena 
 
 
 
jaguars on average outweigh hyenas by perhaps 100 pounds maybe, in a series made by national geographic they stated that jaguars have the strongest bite force pound for pound and actually are the strongest animal pound for pound, later on they corrected themselves however by saying the snow leopard holds this title but the jaguar comes in second place. 
 
 
 
although, i have no idea why you started talking about that in the first place... as much as i liked proving you wrong it has nothing t do with this particular debate lions have stronger bites than bears full stop... 
 
 
 
those figures, like i said to damon weren't 'just estimates' they were estimates taken by 2 of the most credited animal expert companies in the world today (national geographic and animal planet)... they make estimates based on much evidence and observation animal planet imparticular examined in detail the skulls of lions and tigers and found on average they both have about a 1000 pound bite force here is the link again in case you didn't visit it: 
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxh5GGSGmgQ 
 
 
 
yes, yes i already knew packs of hyenas stole from lioness's however as i've already stated to ted i thought he was refering to single hyenas; in the video damon provided me it took numerous hyenas to scavenge from 4 lioness's however 4 hyenas wouldn't even attempt it. 
 
 
 
the documented cases of hyenas killing lioness's are in cases where the lioness is severely outnumbered, and more often than not malnourished. 
 
 
 
no, i didn't contradict myself at all you need to read it again i said polar bears are only a LOT bigger due to their weight i never said that that was the only reason they were bigger. 
 
 
 
lions are longer than polar bears on average, polar bears can reach the same lengths but on everage lions are a foot to a foot and a half longer. 
 
 
 

oh, and sorry what i actually meant about the polar bears were that they are a foot to a foot and a half shorter WHEN STANDING, 
 
 
 
however on all fours lions can outlength a polar bear by as much as 4 foot.

Oliver, 
 
I wonder where the info about the snow leopard's bite force comes from. To my knowledge, snow leopards and clouded leopards are known for having proportionately the longest canines, rather than the greatest bite force. In bite force, jaguars are certainly superior to snow leopards. I very much doubt if a snow leopard would be able to puncture the skull of its victim as easily as jaguars usually do. 
 
In fact, it is a very interesting fact, which I cannot really explain, that leopards are much more combative than either cougars or snow leopards, though their physical capabilities are not very different. Man-eating leopards are even more formidable than tigers or lions, and wounded leopards killed or mauled a number of well-armed hunters. In contrast, there have been very few credible records of cougar attacks on humans, and I never heard a single case of a wild or captive snow leopard killing a human. Of course, snow leopards are rare and they live in sparsely populated areas, whereas the most notorious man-eating leopards were found in densely populated regions of India.

Oliver; 
 
You are severely mistaken and making erroneous claims about bears fighting, biteforce and Hyenas. About Hyena's bite and jaw-strength here is REAL information;" the upper and lower third premolars are conical bone-crushers, with a third bone-holding cone jutting from the lower fourth premolar. Spotted hyenas also have carnassials behind their bone-crushing premolars, the position of which allowing hyenas to crush bone with their premolars without blunting their carnassials.[9] The carnassials themselves are proportionately larger than those of other carnivorous mammals.[20] Combined with large jaw muscles and a special vaulting to protect the skull against large forces, these characteristics give spotted hyenas a powerful bite which can exert a pressure of 800 kg per square cm (11,400 lbf/in²),[9] which is 40% more force than a leopard can generate.[21] Although they possess disproportionately large teeth to counteract wear, three year old spotted hyenas have teeth as worn as those of six year old lions.[9] An experiment conducted by Savage (1955) demonstrated how the jaws of spotted hyenas outmatch those of brown bears in bonecrushing ability.["http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spotted_Hyena 
 
HYENA: http://www.napa.ufl.edu/2003news/chomp.htm says the Hyena’s bite force is 1,000 pounds, while http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:nMGHrOZjIMwJ:luna.cas.usf.edu/~motta/hube says the spotted Hyena’s bite force is 4,500 pounds. The same thing with the lion, different sources quote different results-either way, the Hyena has a stronger bite, period-you don't have to like it, Oliver, but that certainly doesn't alter that fact. http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=bite+force+canis+alopex+felis&meta= says the canine bite force is 773 and the bite force quotient, while the corresponding figures for the striped hyena are 545 and 113.  
 
 
 
National Geographic took the bite force of a few domestic dogs and wild ones.  
 
Here they are: Pitbull pressure bite was 238 lbs  
 
German Shepherd bite was 240 lbs  
 
Wild Dogs bite force was 317 lbs  
 
Rottweiler bite force was 328 lbs  
 
Wolf bite force was 406 lbs 
 
Source(s): 
 
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Wild-Animals-705/BITE-FORCE.htm 
 
National Geographic is also the same ones that put the lion at 697 lbs to 750 lbs variation-NOT the 1000 lbs you have been quoting. 
 
The only way the lion out lenghts as you say, the polar bear is due to the lion having a tail approx. 3 ft-lions are about 8-9 ft long without tail-polar bears are abou t 8-10 ft long-besides-this is a moot point as lions do not stand erect and fight as does a bear-they at most fight a few feet off the ground in a diagnal stance putting their paws on the opponant, but they're NOT that high off the ground when doing this.  
 
 
 
 
 
"ermmm yes grizzlies do choose when to fight but how is that even a point? ALL animal CHOOSE when to fight"``Oliver 
 
The point is what the GRIZZLY chooses to happen will happen, not what the opposing animal, since the Grizzly has the power to MAKE happen its will-it was merely weighing the options and deemed it not worth it, just as lions do-they have been made to change thier minds by warthogs. The Grizzly is master of his environment and THAT is why its HIS choice whether the happless victim will be engaged, live or die-the cougar certaily has no choice-it merely has to deal with the situation in which the Grizzly makes the determination, and that is what Ted and I have already told you about-th ecougar was defending its young, if it was for food, ie. a kill, the bear would have taken it whether teh cougar liked it or not as is commonplace here in North America. Bears have fought off not only cougars from their kills, but taken kills and ran off entire wolfpacks. 
 
"although, i have no idea why you started talking about that in the first place... as much as i liked proving you wrong it has nothing t do with this particular debate lions have stronger bites than bears full stop... "``Oliver 
 
IIRC, in an Animal Planet series called "Animal Face-Off", they estimated the bite force of a 1,500 pound Siberian brown bear to be about 1,800lbs-you talkn about estimates-I agree with DAMON, estimates aren't concrete, hard scientific data on which to derrive a cut-and-dry conclusion. Its called an "educated guess", which remains a guess nonetheless. 
 
What were you talking about? I was merely laughing that you thought I meant the polar bear could swim 60 mph instead of the 60 miles distance that I was talking about-ski-boats don't even go that fast! I was laughing that you thought thats what I meant, picturing a polar bear going so fast, that it would make a great big wake behind it-its still funny!! 
 
Also, IT IS A FACT lions sleep approximately 20 hrs per day, the fact you don't know this, tells me you don't know much about the animal to which you are arguing about, which makes you uninformed or deliberately obtuse-either way, you're wrong; "Male lions sleep an average 20 hours per day. The females on the other hand do all of the really hard workâ€"killing the majority of prey, which the males then appropriate for themselves"`LIONS: AFRICA'S MAGNIFICENT PREDATORS [8.1.07]A male lion may have to defend his turf maybe ten times over the course of a lifetime. With two or more males in a lion pride, their fight ratio goes down even more. Grizzly's fight more than this by far. 
 
Balazs,  
 
Actually, cougars have been documented as killing and maulling people especially in Cal. when riding or walking on trails, there was an instance on Animal Planet on a program where it reported about a cougar killing 2 people and maulling a third. It's bad enough to where I will be watching out if I go ther and just keep it in mind for safety's sake. 
 
"however on all fours lions can outlength a polar bear by as much as 4 foot.  
 
Posted @ Tuesday, October 06, 2009 8:15 PM by Oliver"-Yeah, Oliver, thats due to the length of their tails!!!

Yes, there were a few cougar attacks, even fatal ones, but I never heard of any cougar that killed over a hundred people as several leopards or tigers did.

Oliver, if you include the tail, than yes, the lion would be longer than a polar bear....but, without the tail, they are rather shorter. 
 
And, overheating has NOTHING to do with stamina.....it has to do with the fact the polar bear is rather very much designed for cold whether, with thick fur covering most of it`s body, and a layer of lubber, meaning that even semi hot whether may cause them to overheat, with so much insulation. 
 
However, the organ and gland sizes directly related to stamina are bigger in bears than in lions, meaning they would have the greater stamina. 
 
And, lions do indeed sleep about 19 hours a day....in fact, as i said, you would be hard pressed to get a lion to move, unless the whether was cooler, which it is at night, the time in which they are most active. 
 
Ad, wikipedia is not a reliable source, as it can be edited by anyone.... 
 
Well, i have even more reliable estimates from the most reliable source concerning the bite force of a lion or tiger, and, neither indicated an average bite force of 1000 lbs....that would be to great a number. No matter who makes the estimate, it is still just that...an estimate, and, like everyone else, they are liable for mistake.  
 
Scientists also can, fairly accurately, estimate the age of a polar bear...yet, in many studies, they sometimes get it wrong on quite a number of times. 
 

ATTILA, bite force is actually measured in lbs, not psi...as a hyena with a bite force of 800 kg psi would have the strongest bite force of any animal that has ever lived. 
 
and, the german shepherd`s bite force waqsn`t 240 lbs, it was 238 lbs, that of the pitbull being 235 lbs.

I would say that canines and hyenas may have relatively the greatest stamina, since they are the only land mammal predators which pursue their prey for a substantial distance at great speed with remarkable persistence. Bears spend much more time per day actively than big cats, but mostly they move slowly in search of food.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Tigers-3675/Jaguar.htm 
 
 
 
that one indicates the snow leopard being the strongest feline pound for pound 
 
 
 
and there are other sources which say snow leopards have considerably larger bite force quotients but i won't quote them because they seem to be unreliable. 
 
 
 
as for the leopards i'm not so sure about them being far more combative, cougars do seem to be far more agressive than leopards but leopards have become far more dangerous man eaters than any other animal... this is probably because they're capable of killing a human in under 20 seconds but are still far more stealthy than most other cats and can get around quicker (climbing trees etc). 
 
 
 
Atilla,  
 
 
 
that wikipedia page on hyenas, does not support your claims that hyenas have the strongest bite force which is a myth. 
 
 
 
hyenas have the strongest teeth, which doesn't mean the strongest bite, which allows them to crush bones so they can become fairly digestable. 
 
 
 
Actually, national geographic gave the lions an average of 1000 lbs here is the link once again as you keep missing it: 
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxh5GGSGmgQ 
 
 
 
you can't really argue with video evidence of them saying it. 
 
 
 
polar bears only reach heights of 8 - 9 foot (on average) on their hind legs the hind legs can be 4 - 5 feet tall from the ground... so like i said on all fours lions far outlength it and if lions were to stand on their hind legs would match it, and even be taller... polar bears are only 8 - 9 ft long on their hind legs. 
 
 
 
bears are unwilling to fight even cougars the video proves this, the bear was easily intimidated by the cougar... obviously the bear wanted to get past but the cougar stopped him, the cougar may have taken her cub and ran but she didn't... it shows the bear was mild mannered, and was not desperate to eat so it proves grizzly bears will not fight due to sheer agression as the sub saharan lion does which also proves they fight less... 
 
 
 
as for the bite force 'bite force is linked to size' so whilst a 1500 lb bear may generate that kind of power a 500 - 750 pound grizzly bear presents no challenge to a 450 - 550 lb sub saharan lion. 
 
 
 
it is not a fact lions sleep 20 hours a day, please do not think this, lions have been known to sleep up to 19 hours a day... but on average they sleep much less than this doing all the activities i have described in my previous post watch this please this lion expert explains everything: 
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6NMwrLRm7E 
 
 
 
you seem to think that a male lion defending his pride is the only time a lion fights... a lion spends the first few years of his life learning how to fight, and from then on is constantly in agressive situations fighting the other male lions in the pride, fighting the female lions over who gets first dibs on the kill, defending the pride from nomadic male lions (not nessesarily looking to take over the pride), defending his pride from hyenas, and wild dogs etc... 
 
 
 
grizzlies on the other hand only come into any real conflict during the salmon season of the year when they fight over the best fishing spots apart from that grizzly conflicts are highly uncommon. 
 
 
 
damon, 
 
 
 
yes it is true what you say that polar bears have largers organs etc, however stamina really means how long you can endure, and polar bears with their high levels of fat cannot endure long periods of running, or fighting etc. 
 
 
 
as i've said to attilla lions have only been known to sleep up to 19 hours a day it is not usual, lions have only been given this estimate, and this reputation of being lazy because they are only usually observed during the afternoon which is the time they are taking a nap from the african afternoon sun. 
 
 
 
the biteforce i can only assume is fairly factual, everyone is liable for mistake and these 2 companies of experts are the most credited in the world so you cannot just simply call them both unreliable about the same thing. 
 
 
 
here is some more information about the biteforce of animals: 
 
 
 
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/reddhole/ChristiansenWroeResults001.jpg

Oliver, neither animal planet, or nat geo made any actual studies upon the bite force of a lion and tiger, other than from animal face-off, and those were from skulls scaled to the largest recorded sizes of both, as they said. 
 
Likewise, Oliver, in that link you showed (which i already have) of the bite force (which is also estimates, based upon the skulls of these animals) indicate a bite force much less than 1000 lbs.....in fact, it was 2023.7 newtons, which is 455.5 lbs, which, in my opinion, is an underestimate, and smaller than that of the bite force of that young lion, which is further reasons why i do not agree with estimated figures. as they are liable for mistake. 
 
and, polar bears can indeed fight for a long time, in fact much longer than lions....and they certainly have great stamina in running.....

Attila, 
 
 
 
Yes I saw the Polar Bear/Brown hybrid on a documentary. You are correct about the Polar Bears/ & Browns/Grizzly coming into contact more often and mating. I suspect we will see more of it do to their habitat reduction. 
 
 
 
Enjoy the Big Grizzly! 
 
 
 
Also Polar Bears that swim 60 miles do have great stamina. Experts agree that Polar/Kodiak/Grizzly/Alaskan Coastal Brown Bears all have great stamina so I don't know why some people here are in denial.  
 
 
 
Oliver,  
 
 
 
Damon is right about Wiki! If you are going to cite "Wiki" then you had better up the Big Bears weight buy a lot. Also it will tell you Grizzlies always defeat Mountian Lions/Cougars. That part would be accurate LOL... 
 
 
 
Your Bite Force arguemets are dead in the water. I stated that much earlir: 
 
 
 
Every Bite Force test I have seen or read has the Hyena way ahead of the Lion. 
 
 
 
In most cases I don't give Bite Force tests much credability due to a controlled enviornment and machines used to imitate the animal.  
 
 
 
Tests on Crocs,Gators,Large Snapping Turtles; Yes! Other animals are unreliable. 
 
 
 
 
 
Also Oliver,  
 
 
 
You yourself must be tired of the Cougar intimidating the Grizzly skit!  
 
 
 
Watch the video again and see how the Bear just leaned on the Cougar with it's shoulder and the Cat fell back about 5 feet LOL..... 
 
 
 
That is what Atilla and I mean about choosing battles. That Cougar was well in range for the Bear to unload a mighty swat but CHOSE not to. That Bear knew he was the KING of HIS domain and did not have to prove it. That is the true sign of power; when you have it but don't need to prove it. 
 
 
 
You also wrote, "a 500-750 Lb. Grizzly presents no challenge to a 450-550 Sub-Saharan Lion."  
 
 
 
Now I know you are off your rocker! Many experts agree a Grizzly of the same weight vs. such a Lion would hold its own. In your scenario; in the end there would be 1 less great African Lion. 
 
 
 
Oliver, for continual use of misimformation I have to penalize you. I am deducting 0.5 from the Lions LOL... 
 
 
 
Score: 
 
 
 
Big Male Bears 8 
 
 
 
Big Male Lions 2 
 
 
 
When I am done writing, I will go watch the Cougar/Bear video for a good laugh. 
 
 
 
 
 
Balazs, 
 
 
 
Attila is right; Cougars would kill a lot more people if they lived in more populated areas. I already mentioned that Cougars were documented as having defeated Jaguars more often in encounters. Yes Jaguars are said to have stronger jaws and are larger in size. However, the Cougar I believe used it's agility and quickness to overcome the Jaguar. The locations were Mexico,Central America, South America. If you have info that suggests otherwise please share it.  
 

Oliver, 
 
 
 
One last question: 
 
 
 
Are we really going to count the tail in regard to lenght? Especially when it comes to standing up straight? 
 
 
 
Now we are well pass the point of rediculous!

Oliver; you're correct about cougars seeming to be more agressive than leopards, from what I recollect from watching Big Cat Diary's and other docs, the leopard is not as given to fighting as the other big cats, however, it is best known for being the stealthy ninja of the big cats so much as to make them sound noisy and clumsy in comparison-thats how good they are at stealth. 
 
Now Oliver, polar bears must have plenty of stamina, because in the Marines, they droppped us 2 miles out by helo and we swam to shore-I was in the best shape of my life and it was tiring with our gear-thats only 2 miles! Water(and I've done PLENTY of water training!)wears you out and saps your strength after awhile-so polar bears DO have to have stamina-60 miles! There's an athelete under that white fur! I agree with you TED, bears DO have stamina! Here Oliver; "Males can reach 11 feet in length, but normally are 8-10 feet" http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/a_closer_look_at_marine_mammals/polar_bears/# 
 
 
 
Polar bears are carnivores, feeding primarily on Arctic ringed seals. Their partially webbed paws allow them to swim, at a pace of six miles per hour, for up to 60 miles without rest.  
 
 
 
That cougar vid was only that-one video! Do you think it has not gone the other way?  
 
Grizzly's are certainly NOT unwilling to fight period, let alone a cougar. They have come into conflicts with cougars, most of the time running them off. You seem to think Grizzly's hardly fight in their long lives at all!! Are you aware how long they live? They can live about 25-30 years in the wild-longer in captivity-Bart the Bear was an exception as he had cancer, I believe, so he passed away at around 23 years old-now HE didn't have alot of fights in his life, but he's an exception as a captive Grizzly.  
 
Ted, I completely agree with you, thats what I've been trying to tell Oliver; "Every Bite Force test I have seen or read has the Hyena way ahead of the Lion."`Ted 
 
If you notice one thing, all of you; is that information collected often varies or sometimes conflicts with other sources, so you have to be careful where you get them from. What DAMON was saying is you have to get it from the actual scientists which then in turn give it to NatGeo or Animal Planet-those are the people feediing them with information and some of them don't always agree and sometimes mistakes are made, they are only human, then on the other hand newer more correct info is at hand when the other is already airing, hence discrepancies can be made. All those other links I gave you on biteforce indicates lions are below 1000 lbs, approx. 697-750 lbs.  
 
Oliver, you stated this, however you can always retract this statement if you like; 
 
"You also wrote, "a 500-750 Lb. Grizzly presents no challenge to a 450-550 Sub-Saharan Lion."  
 
Certainly a Grizzly presents a challenge for anything!! People have shot them numerous times only to have the enraged Grizzly maul them! We're talking about big guns here, also. Any bear is a challenge, except perhaps the giant panda when comming into interspecies conflicts! Even a black bear is no pushover, and while the lion may prevail, its still challenging! 
 
 
 
 
 
"as for the leopards i'm not so sure about them being far more combative, cougars do seem to be far more agressive than leopards but leopards have become far more dangerous man eaters than any other animal... this is probably because they're capable of killing a human in under 20 seconds but are still far more stealthy than most other cats and can get around quicker (climbing trees etc)."`Oliver 
 
 
 
Damon-I completely agree with you in what you've stated regarding biteforce and lions sleeping-i only stated to Oliver they sleep APPROX 20 hours-I believe 19 hrs would clearly fall under that category as cited by lion biologists!  
 
"hyenas have the strongest teeth, which doesn't mean the strongest bite, which allows them to crush bones so they can become fairly digestable."``Oliver 
 
Oliver-they hav to have the jaw power to get behind those massive teeth to be able to use it all together-the teeth have tto have power in order to eat teeth! They have already been cited as having powerful jaws! 
 

Damon & Oliver & others, 
 
 
 
I don't have the time to look this up! 
 
 
 
Question: 
 
In a Lion pride with TWO or MORE ADULT MALES; in general, do all, some, only the dominant, only the lovers (LOL...) get to mate? 
 
 
 
It seemed as if the director of 1 video protrayed the dominant Male a killer of prey, but it took a back seat to the other adult Male who got to enjoy the females.  
 
 
 
Perhaps he was not interested? Maybe they decided who was the dominant male before the video was shot?  
 
 
 
It seems as if experts give various reasons. Which one of you can give the best answer?

Ted, with lions, as long as the pride males do not number more than 3 specimens, then most usually, all the males get to mate.....it is only when their numbers are larger that all the males might not get a chance to mate frequently, especially the most subordinant male, according to a study by packer. Most usually, any group of males larger than about 3 specimens are almost always all related....because, as i said, with a group of males larger than about 3 might mean the most subordinant males might have only a few chances to mate, as there is usually not more than 3 females at a time which are in season. 
 
It would be hard for a larger group of non-related lions to maintain their bond if the cons outweigh the benefits gained by group living. 
 
 
 
and of course any of the males may hunt......

national geographic also made studies of the bite force based upon the skull, and animal planet never indicated that they were skulls of the largest specimens, they simply stated that they were skulls of a lion and of a tiger, i have watched the whole thing. 
 
 
 
polar bears are well documented for being known to overheat quickly... which indicates low stamina... their organs and glands may be very large, however the ammount of fat they store in their body prevents them from gaining much stamina. 
 
 
 
Ted, 
 
 
 
most bears have great stamina, but the polar bear which is known to overheat quite quickly can not last doing hard excercise for very long this is due to the huge layer of blubber they have just underneath their fur, it isn't the fur itself which makes him this way. 
 
 
 
and nope wikipedia does not state grizzlies often beat cougars, they say conflict between the 2 doesn't happen often and the grizzlies competition consists more of coyotes, grey wolves, and other bears... however the source is missing from this particular wikipedia quote so as to it's reliability i'm not so sure. 
 
 
 
generally wikipedia gives a source in regards to it's information, not 'just anyone' can post on wikipedia, their sites are reviewed daily by their experts and if false information is posted it will be readily deleted. 
 
 
 
however the weights in the grizzly are stated from the source ** 
 
1.^ Brown, Gary (1996). Great Bear Almanac. pp. 340. ISBN 1558214747.** 
 
 
 
no, that's a stupid thought you can't possibly think that the thoughts running through a grizzlies mind when it was running away from the cougar was 'well i'm the king but i don't need to prove it so i'll just back up and run now'... 
 
 
 
the grizzly did not want to fight it's that simple, it did not like the risk of fighting and backed away. 
 
 
 
and no i didn't write ''a 500-750 Lb. Grizzly presents no challenge to a 450-550 Sub-Saharan Lion." what i wrote was ''a 500-750 Lb. Grizzly presents no challenge to a 450-550 Sub-Saharan Lion in regards to bite force."  
 
 
 
theres a big difference in those 2 statements. 
 
 
 
for the last time ted, noone has been counting the tail... you fail to realise that when a 8 - 9 foot lion stands up on his 4 foot hind legs, he reaches a height of over 10 foot... 
 
 
 
and by the way in regards to your question; yes pride males do fight over the best lioness's in the pride, and they have been known to seriously injure each other when this happens, i've never heard of a death but i've no doubt there are some. 
 
 
 
attilla, 
 
 
 
leopards, i believe are less agressive but they still fight often enough with mainly hyenas which they've also been known to kill. 
 
 
 
polar bears in the ice cold water should have much stamina... however it is also well documented that polar bears overheat quite quickly, and by the way polar bears do not maintain a 6mph speed for 60 miles they stop for rests at points, but they move fairly quickly because of the orcas that want to eat them. 
 
 
 
i'm more than certain it has gone the other way, but like i've always been saying the cougar video proves how easily intimidated grizzly bears are. 
 
 
 
and yes grizzlies do not fight as often as you like to think; the only real conflict they have is during the salmon season, and most of the fights one of them backs down before anyone is hurt (usually the smaller one). 
 
 
 
i wasn't particularly debating lions and hyenas i have no idea why it was brought up, but all i was responding to from you was that you kept saying hyenas have the strongest bite force of all land animals (which i have no idea why you said this as we're debating lions and bears), but the observation that they do is actually a myth, as national geographic did a show on bite force and gave the strongest to the jaguar, also proportionally a variety of animals have stronger biteforces than the spotted hyena including the tasmanian devil. 
 
 
 
and no, scientists don't 'give' national geographic or animal planet the results both companies have their own individual team of animal experts and scientists which conduct their own experiements and present them accordingly. 
 
 
 
***"You also wrote, "a 500-750 Lb. Grizzly presents no challenge to a 450-550 Sub-Saharan Lion."***  
 
 
 
no what i wrote was ''as for bite force blah blah blah a grizzly bear presents no challenge to a sub saharan lion'' 
 
 
 
yeah i was talking about bite force but i can see how you confused it.

Damon, 
 
 
 
Thanks for the comprehensive answer!

Oliver,  
 
 
 
Yes I misquoted you! For that I penalize myself and give back the 0.5 that I deducted. 
 
 
 
Big Bears 7/8 
 
 
 
Big Lions 2/3 
 
 
 
 
 

Oliver, was animal planet the show you watched?..because, they specifically stated they scaled the skulls to the largest size; 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCqinubf08A 
 
And, overheating, again, has nothing to do with stamina, but insulation. They have such extreme insulation that they cannot stand temperatures much above 10 degrees. 
 
Also, the head and body length of the lion is not 8 or 9 ft....where`d you get that info?...it`s rather wrong....here is some data upon the length of lions (average length including tail: 9ft, 2 in); 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/bodysizeofugandanandmasjg3.png 
 
And, those were adult specimens....i have other records which indicate a similar length. as a note (the ones with the upward pointing arrows, under where it says sex, are males...the ones with the opposite, females). 
 
And, check out the height of this lion, next to a man (nowhere near 10 ft); 
 
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/fd415efded76b1225a95b47ad7f05858850.jpg 
 
And, a hyena would usually defeat a leopard...most records claiming leopards to have killed hyenas were false..... 
 

damon, since when do sub saharan lioness's have a 'season' for mating? 
 
 
 
that was not the instance i was talking about as in that particular episode they state the tigers bite force being 4000 psi, which cannot really be converted into pounds. 
 
 
 
however in this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxh5GGSGmgQ 
 
 
 
there are 2 instances in which animal planet and national geographic state an average 1000 lbs or 'half a ton' of bite force. 
 
 
 
and also i can quote various online sources (which admittedly will be less reliable) who quote a lions bite force inparticular being measured at 940 lbs. 
 
 
 
actually the overheating due to insulation does have much to do with stamina, stamina simply means how long you can ENDURE, it is not always a question of how big your lungs are 
 
 
 
for example a fat man with particularly big organs and glands, will have less stamina than a muscular man who has smaller organs and glands. 
 
 
 
if polar bears stored less blubber then their stamina would raise by a vast ammount, however living in that enviroment forces them to store it. 
 
 
 
9 foot is over doing it a bit, but 8 foot is average for a healthy adult. 
 
 
 
most likely the picture was a 7 foot specimen on hind legs giving way for the diagonal stance looks to be 8.5 foot perhaps. 
 
 
 
i have different sources to be quoted if you'd like them? i've only ever heard records of hyenas killing leopards in groups of 2 or 3.

Oliver, indeed, i already know that lionesses don`t have a season for mating...i was using it in a general sense to indicate the lionesses readiness, or not, to mating. 
 
And, i have that very source (the original) of the lion`s bite force as being 940 lbs...however, that too, was just an estimate based upon the skulls of these animals. 
 
And, stamina does not merely mean how long you can ENDURE....as no animal can endure extreme heat for too long, even the african going lion, who must sometimes go into the shade the escape the worst of the heat, though it should be noted that lions, unlike polar bears, are built for the african savannah. 
 
Stamina is measured in many ways, and, heat tolerance is not one of them...stamina can be measured based upon how long an animal can run, or how long they may last in a fight...... 
 
And, i have every modern document published upon the sizes of both lions and tigers, and i assure you the head and body length of the lion is not 8 or 9ft, it is 6 ft on average...i showed you a record upon this...the average body length of the lion was 180 cm, in that instance...and, that is about 6ft. I also have records from a hunter who measured well over 25 lions, and they averaged about 9ft, tail included.  
 
Any source that states that the body length of the lion is 8 or 9 ft is not reliable....as there is not a reliable source on then planet in proof of this, and that is an impossible size for these animals. 
 
And, lions cannot stand completely straight up......and certainly you know this?...even then, they could not be much more than 7 ft if they did. For comparison, check out this polar bear (largest on record, which was over 11 ft in height); 
 
http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/39 
 
That bear TOWERED over that guy, and it was over 11 ft in height. 
 
And, i`ve only heard one record of a leopard killing a hyena, and even that one is questionable. 
 
 
 

Oliver, 
 
 
 
"Wiki" 
 
 
 
1. Cougars give Grizzlies a WIDE berth! 
 
 
 
2. Cougars are less competition for Grizzlies than other predators. 
 
 
 
3. Grizzlies will steal kills from Cougars usually without a problem. However, the Cougar might stand it's ground to harrass the Grizzly but will also stay out of the Grizzlies reach. 
 
 
 
Dr. Steve French, observed in Glacier & Yellowstone, "113 cougar kills" & "Grizzlies visited about a quarter of the Cougar kills, robbing Cougars of up to 26 percent of their food" (Grizzly Almanac, 2000, pp.84-85). 
 
 
 
I know of No reports of Cougars stealing a Grizzly kill! 
 
 
 
And these are smaller Grizzlies of the Lower 48 states. 
 
 
 
Point: The Grizzly is NOT intimidated by the Cougar! 
 
 
 
Also, Dr. French in 1996, "Watched ONE 350Lb. Grizzly chase NINE wolfs off an elk carcus and take possession of the prize" (Grizzly Almanac, 2000, pp.85). Nice! 
 
 
 
Grizzly vs. 5 or 6 Bull Buffalos: 
 
 
 
"A veteran hunter in Dakota once watched a huge male Grizzly attack a small herd of Buffalo cows protected by five or six bulls," related Wayne Gard in (The Great Buffalo Hunt). "As the Bear approached, the bulls closed ranks and lowered their horns. When the bulls charged, the bear struck one of them so hard with his paws that he broke the back of the bull, killing him instantly. But the other bulls used their horns so effectively that soon the bear crawled off with mortal wounds" (Great Bear Almanac, 1993, pp.111). 
 
 
 
So much for a Grizzly not standing it's ground against a much superrior force! Also one strike; one dead Buffalo Bull. Awsome!  
 
 
 
 
 
Weight: 
 
 
 
I own the "Great Bear Almanac" 1993 Edition. There is no page 340. 
 
Perhaps the 1996, Edition has more pages! 
 
 
 
I also own "The Grizzly Almanac" 2000, Edition. 
 
 
 
As I said repeatedly; Geography is key! 
 
 
 
Alaskan Coastal Grizzlies/Browns average 725 Lbs. (Great Bear Almanac, pp.60).  
 
 
 
Inland Grizzlies especially in the lower 48 states are smaller; average is 490 Lbs.  
 
 
 
The reason DIET! Sound familiar? 
 
 
 
Largest recorded Coastal Brown 2,500+++ WOW! 
 
 
 
Largest recorded Inland Grizzly 1,496, WOW! 
 
 
 
Polar Bear Average 1,150Lbs. (Great Bear Almanac pp.60). 
 
 
 
"Grizzly Almanac" is around the same with it's measurements; no need to repeat. 
 
 
 
Fights: Grizzly vs. African Lion: 
 
 
 
Large California Grizzly vs. man-eating African Lion, in Mexico, according to Storer and Tevis, described by Ranger fame Horace Bell, "The Grizzly Bear handeled the African King as a cat would a rat. The conflict was over so quickly that spectators hardly realized how it was actually accomplished" (Great Bear Almanac, 1993, pp.215); (California Grizzly, pp. 109).  
 
 
 
"There is also a vague account of a circus African Lion that jumped an American Black Bear during an act. The fight was fierce and both combatants were injured, but the Lion's injuries where (should be 'were') of the extent that it had to be destroyed" (Great Bear Almanac, pp.110). 
 
 
 
Oliver, 
 
 
 
I am just quoting the book you cited. For the record I do not believe every Grizzly vs. African Lion would end so quickly. Nor do I believe the Grizzly wins everytime. However, it also seems the Black Bear gained a victory as well. 
 
 
 
Score: 
 
 
 
Big Bears 8  
 
 
 
Big Lions 2  
 
 
 
Other Info: 
 
 
 
"Though the Polar Bear swims six miles per hour, their major enemy, the Killer Whale, is capable of swimming thirty miles per hour" (Great Bear Almanac, 1993, pp.112).  
 
 
 
Orca's rule the oceans; they prey on Great Whites. 
 
 
 
Good night to all!

I would be very interested in any reliable information about jaguar-cougar interactions. The most careful study I found about interspecies killings among predators ("Diet, Morphology and Interspecies Killing in Carnivora") did not mention any concrete case of a cougar or a jaguar killed by the other species, though it cited a single work on jaguar-cougar interactions. I find it somewhat hard to believe that a cougar could get the upper paw over a jaguar in a serious fight.  
 
Similarly, I doubt if the cougar is really more combative than the leopard. Male cougars do fight each other to the death in area where cougar population density is high and prey is relatively scarce, but human population density may not shape cougar behavior to a decisive extent. I read many descriptions about cougar behavior in as different regions as Amazonia in Brazil, Florida in the U.S., and the American West, and in none of the regions did that cat show any particular inclination to kill humans, either in the 19th century or nowadays. In areas populated by cougars, black bears and grizzlies alike, the latter were in general much more combative toward humans than the other two species.

Hi Balazs, 
 
I just watched a doc on Jaguars last night on animal planet's "champions of the wild" where they are in Belize and they were saying that jaguars do not fight very much at all and aviod each other as much as possible to ensure there is no combat. I heard them say that its due to even a slight injury in that environment could lead to death via infectuous diseases and bacteria of all kinds. They also stated that there are no records of jaguars preying or stalking humans as tigers have and possibly leopards and certainly like cougars do in california's trails. I still think this would be interesting nonetheless as they seem evenly matched. 
 
I think cougars are almost gone from florida, louisianna and Texas although some are still there, they have all but disappeared unfortunately. People here in the US don't know how to live by apex predators without wanting to exterminate them, unfortunately-just look at yellowstone national park's wolves for another example. Ranchers use excuse of their livestock, however some people claiming this weren't even ranchers at all. 
 

the only reliable measurement i've heard of on the actual bite force test was by the young male lion, apart from that skulls from adult specimens are always seemingly indicating a lion and tigers bite forces are both at about 1000 lbs. 
 
 
 
indeed that is what stamina means, stamina is used in all sorts of senses it means how long you can endure something however the 'something' changes on whichever thing you are refering to so some people have a high level of stamina in running, however in swimming their stamina could be low. 
 
 
 
and as i've said polar bears are known to overheat very quickly which indicates low stamina, so whilst they have that thick layer of blubber they will not be able to realise their potential in regards to stamina. 
 
 
 
i have both records, and emails from animal expert sources such as bigcatrescue etc that indicate the average healthy male lion rounds up to 8 foot give or take a few inches 230 - 240 cms, whilst 250 cms the largest specimens will reach. 
 
 
 
yes whilst i am aware lions cannot stand straight up you have to give way for about a foot and a half when they're on the hind legs, the picture you gave me shows most likely not one of the biggest lions you could find whilst the polar bear picture indicates the largest specimen, not to mention the man is not standing on the same platform as the bear, however if you were to take pictures next to the largest lions you would find a far bigger comparison to a polar bear. 
 
 
 
i've heard of a few instances and also one of a safari which they were eye witness to the account of the leopard killing the hyena... although i've never heard of a hyenas killing a leopard in a 1 on 1 fight.

also ted those particular wikipedia quotes are fairly unreliable as the source is not given, or mentioned as it says 'ciatation needed'. 
 
 
 
and your point is invalid because video evidence disagrees with you that grizzlies are infact intimidated by cougars. 
 
 
 
the largest populations of grizzly bears are found in coastal areas where the weight is typically 500 - 750 lbs 
 
source: http://www.fws.gov/mountain%2Dprairie/species/mammals/grizzly/ 
 
 
 
orcas do not particularly rule the oceans they will not attack things such as the blue whale for example or in a general sense dolphins.

Oliver, 
 
 
 
I guess you play by double standards! 
 
 
 
You mentioned "Wiki" as a cite so I wrote what was actually written on the "Wiki" cite. 
 
 
 
You and that video are a joke LOL.. 
 
 
 
I think the video was spliced!  
 
 
 
Watch after the Grizzly shoved the Cougar about 5-6 feet; the video then cuts to the Cougar growling. Look behind the Cougar and you will see a river/stream on flat terrain. That is inconsistent with the first part of the video LOL... 
 
 
 
I guess you also know more than Dr. Steve French who observed Grizzlies in the Lower 48 states for years and gives the accounts I cited, NOT from "Wiki" but from "Grizzly Almanac." 
 
 
 
As for Orcas; is there a predator above them in the food chain of the worlds oceans??????????? 
 
 
 
THERE IS NOT!!!!!! 
 
 
 
For writing more misinformation you just lost another Lion LOL... 
 
 
 
Big Bears 9 
 
 
 
Big Lions 1 
 
 
 
Any more infractions and you will be suspended! :)

Oliver, 
 
 
 
Not to rub it in, but do some research on the Cougar/Grizzly video. Reasearch MARTY STOUFFER! 
 
 
 
You can hear the voice of MARTY STOUFFER in the background narrating. He directed quite a few of WILD AMERICA videos. 
 
 
 
Stouffer was exposed in the early 1990s by some of his filming crew & staff as staging animal confrontations. For all we know the Bear could have been somewhat trained; it sure looked like it. The Cougar was probaly part of the staging; we never did see the cub with the mother. 
 
 
 
My brother's friend had a friend who owned/handled a Cougar. I would not trust that Cat but they can be trained to a DEGREE. I have pictures with Cougar playing and climbing on my brother. He never did attack my brother or owner.  
 
 
 
Also, as I stated earlier, you can see a river/stream in the background as the Cougar gave a loud growl. That was much different terrain from that of the beginning of the video. I did learn something in Law enforcement LOL... 
 
 
 
However, as I said sometimes Cougars will defend their kill at times and they will always defend their cubs. Bottom line: The Cougar is NO match for a Big Grizzly Bear. Especially an Alaskan Grizzly! 
 
 
 
As for Blue SPERM whales, they will become aggresive when threatened by Killer Whales but Blue sperm whales are not "Predators."  
 
 
 
In regard to Dolphines; Orcas are in the same family. No dolphin can handle a Killer Whale 1 on 1.

Ted: 
 
There is some confusion here. Blue whales are baleen whales, i.e., they eat mostly krill. Sperm whales are toothed whales, that is, they are formidable predators, but their main prey is squids. They would never be able to outswim an orca, and thus sperm whale predation on orcas is out of the question (just as you said). But there are no "blue sperm whales", only blue whales and grey (or occasionally white) sperm whales.:)

Apart from sperm whales, the only animal that may be occasionally able to defeat or deter an orca in the sea is a big and enraged bull walrus. There are a few (confirmed or unconfirmed) reports about orcas acting threateningly toward walruses and receiving some serious thrusts from the tusks of the walrus in return. I would never doubt the walrus' willingness to defy even an orca, and they can maneuver underwater surprisingly well, but the orca's superior speed and its tendency to hunt in pods would be advantages difficult to overcome.

balazs, most large whales are rather fast creatures, some traveling upwards of 23 mph, a few reaching a speed of 30, such as the sei whale, the fastest baleen whale, and indeed the fastest whale in the seas. 
 

Balazs, 
 
 
 
The quick research I did referred to the "Blue Sperm Whale." However, I won't dispute your comments. Orcas and Blue Whales are way off topic. My point was that Killer Whales are Apex predators; I can't see a Polar Bear defeating an adult Killer Whale in the ocean. However, if you know of such events please get back to me.  
 
 
 

Balazs, 
 
 
 
The mistake I made was using "Blue" when I should have used "Bull" Perm Whale. I misread the article.

The fastest whales are the so-called rorquals, particularly the fin and sei whales. Right whales and sperm whales are considerably slower. This is why the latter species were nearly wiped out as early as the era of rowed catcher boats. 
 
 
 
Yes, it is a good point to mention that you referred to a bull sperm whale, since female ones are much smaller and considerably less aggressive.  
 
 
 
Of course a polar bear would have no chance against an adult and healthy orca in the open sea. Walruses are good in diving and underwater maneuvering, but the bear prefers to attack its prey on the seacoast, rather than in the water.

Here is a documented story about a walrus-orca fight, whose outcome shows well the fighting capabilities of a bull walrus: 
http://2mn.org/engl/gallery/walrus_1en.htm 
 

Balazs, 
 
 
 
I could not pull up the video; however, it sounds like the Walrus did well in the encounter. 
 
 
 
The only video that came up was a large Female Killer whale destroying a Great White Shark. 
 
 
 
Give me a little play by play on the action if you can LOL.. 
 
 
 
I'll try to pull it up later. 
 
 
 
Do you think a Walrus Bull can actually defeat the bigger subspecies of Mature Male Killer Whales? I would highly doubt it; however, I admit I have no real evidence to support my opinion. 
 
 
 
I commented earlier that I would put my money on the Walrus against the Polar Bear IN the WATER. I guess I'll stand by that after reading some of your comments. 
 
 
 
I've seen a pod of smaller subspecies of Killer Whales off Alaska but I don't remember ever seeing a Large Orca except at Sea World LOL...

Well, I doubt if the walrus would be actually able to kill the orca, because if the situation turned out to be unfavorable for the whale, the latter would simply flee, and the walrus would never be able to outswim it. But walrus bulls are very aggressive, and the mere combativeness of the walrus, particularly if reinforced by a lucky tusk hit, would probably keep a single orca at bay. Orcas are after all not very accustomed to killing prey that fights back effectively. Neither big baleen whales nor smaller animals like seals are really dangerous opponents, and confrontations between orcas and sperm whale bulls are probably quite rare. 
 
 
 
The Russian story (picture, not video) I referred to described how a big walrus bull survived an encounter with orcas. It was seriously injured on its muzzle and one of its tusks was broken, but it later recovered from its wounds. I guess that there was probably some kind of frontal confrontation between the walrus and the orca, and when the whale bit the walrus, the walrus managed to hit it with its tusks, with the impact breaking one of the tusks. Then the orca may have decided to break off the encounter. 
 
 
 
Of course a polar bear could not kill an adult walrus in deep water. It is not without reason that bears seek to attack walruses on land, whereas the latter do their best to move to the water as soon as they're attacked.

Balazs, 
 
 
 
Good description! 
 
 
 
I think you and I are pretty much in agreement on these issues. 
 
 
 
I have already commented that my money would be on the Walrus in WATER; the Polar Bear on ice/land. I think most of us have seen the Polar Bear kill the Walrus on soild ground. 
 
 
 
Thanks!

Thanks, Ted. 
 
 
 
We may also agree on that a walrus would be quite able to defeat even the biggest male killer whale on land.:))

After seeing the votes being so low on the black bear, I would like to say, what the Hell are these people thinking? Lions are powerful hunters; believe me, but bears have been proven to be the strongest carnvivoran, pound for pound. Black bears are more aggressive than other bear species, despite their smaller size compared to all of the Brown bear subspecies and the Polar bear. However, black bears are still very powerful. They are at least as strong as a male lion. A large male black bear has the same potential to kill what a male lion can. Also, they have stronger paws. They can crush a human skull if their hit is placed correctly. Black bears have been known to easily over-take cougars and in Florida, alligators. Black bears have powerful jaws, like all bears do. This fight could go both ways. The lion is physically stronger than the bear, however, it is more agile, but an enraged black bear can do some serious damage to a lion. Just because bears look also, doesn’t mean they are. Bears can run up to 35 miles per hour. Also, people have not considered that felines have limited stamina. They have some of the lowest stamina out of all of the Carnivorans. Bears have a lot of stamina, and can fight for long periods of time, like canids. A bear's claws are also longer than that of a male lion’s, no matter what species of bear. Siberian brown bears, which aren't even the largest brown bear subspecies (that title belongs to the Kodiak bear), can still kill the world's lar